New player, are spell casters weak?

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Prons
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New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Prons » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:52 pm

Hello there! I had the privilage of running the English Quickstart for my group the last night. I'd say the response was mostly positive, although the player of Mirhiban was disappointed with the casting time of their spells. They felt that it took too many rounds/actions to cast their offensive spells, without doing all that much more damage than the up-close fighters.

I was hoping to ask someone more experienced with the system about this. Are there ways to cast offensive spells faster? Is the assumption that spell-casters have weak in-combat skills, but strong utilities? Or could it have been that we were interpreting the rules incorrectly?

Thanks in advance, looking forward to this games physical release!

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HEX the Dark
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby HEX the Dark » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:38 am

Someone once described mages in TDE as swiss army knives. If you have a good one, it can spare you a whole lot of other tools (or in this case, other professions), but if you have a bad one it's almost useless.
There is an ongoing debate about how usable mages are, especially since many of the spells take so long, as you mentioned. Not only pure fighting spells, but also things like anti-/countermagic. The spells you could use in a fight take hours (or at least, minutes) in preparation and execution.
You probably could compare mages in a fight to archers or crossbowmen. They take long to load and shoot, but deal good damage from far away.
Never trust a smiling gamemaster

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Lambert
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Lambert » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:38 pm

Magic in the dark eye is powerful,
But mostly not by blowing people up. That can be done, and often in the main rules casting time can be modified if you chuck more power/skill at it, but magic shines in allowing you to do the things people without magic can't.

Also in fights other spells are probably more useful than direct damage. Spells which layer on negative status effects might tip what would be an extremely dangerous fight into a relatively safe encounter. Also seeing that most fights are with sentient beings magic has also a great intimidation value, even if you use some time and a bunch of your power on a flashy spell it might well end the fight as your opponent's might well not know that you can't do this again any time soon.

I think wizards are still the most powerful class in the Dark Eye but if you are used to being able to reduce entire armies to dust with a D&D wizard they might well appear weak, but they also don't make mundane adventurers pointless.

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Deti
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Deti » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:42 pm

Yeah, Magic in TDE is a lot different from other System, where Mages could shot fire-lance, fire-lance and another fire-lance...

The importent thing is, how you could help the group outside of battle. The Mage that I play in a Campaign(TDE 4.1 ruleset) concentrate on support in Battle. Or I simply try to stay out of battle to cast the Balsam Salabunde AFTER battle :-)
I mean, he CAN throw a Ignifaxius, but in the whole 2 years we play the campaign, I used it only in one Battle, where we fought a demon and nobody of the group could hurt it. I "burned" more than 100 ArP against one enemy.

My Mage shines when it comes to finding and analysing information ("normal or magical information). His academy is specialized around that kind of magic. He can read minds, pick locks with magic, make himself invisible, look through walls and translate almost every language with magic ( Reading minds and watch throug walls is in the basic Rulebook, lockpicking will be in Warring Kingdoms).

It's really difficult to play a mage, who casts a fireball in every fight. Of course you can do it every now and then, but it costs al lot of ArP and it takes a lot of time.

To realize what a mage is truly capable of doing, we have to wait for the first Magic related book.

bluedragon7
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby bluedragon7 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:45 am

In 4th edition there were a lot of complaints about mages too powerful, so for 5th edition magic was toned down quite a bit.

A lot of spells used to have their full effect once they were successful with the QL only determining the duration.
For example the spell Paralysis gave the equivalent of a full level 4 Paralysis for 5 to 15 minutes on QL1, it would have been up to 90 minutes at QL6.
Also a typical starting Mage had some 20-30 spells activated at start for more flexibility.
The only thing they were not good at even back then was damaging combat spells, running out of energy for those very quickly.

Flash
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Flash » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:52 pm

bluedragon7 wrote:In 4th edition there were a lot of complaints about mages too powerful, so for 5th edition magic was toned down quite a bit.

A lot of spells used to have their full effect once they were successful with the QL only determining the duration.
For example the spell Paralysis gave the equivalent of a full level 4 Paralysis for 5 to 15 minutes on QL1, it would have been up to 90 minutes at QL6.
Also a typical starting Mage had some 20-30 spells activated at start for more flexibility.
The only thing they were not good at even back then was damaging combat spells, running out of energy for those very quickly.


The guild mages got toned down the most here as they were too good compared to the other types of casters and they had the bad habit of encroaching on the other casters specialities.

bluedragon7
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby bluedragon7 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:04 pm

Currently all casters at on roughly equal footing with witches having a slight edge. They are just all well below their abilities from previous editions not only rules wise but also in regards to background information.
The benefit of this change is, that in the usual range of experience (1000 to 2500 AP) magic users will not unbalance a group as they could before. A starting Mage is now just a mere Adept of magic arts and will stay that for quite some time.

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Bosper
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Bosper » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:40 am

Mages are very versatile and with the magic supplement upcoming they will be able to specialise in one kind of magic and gaining a bit more power in that field.
In my testgames i could send away a 2D6+12 firelance in 1 action for 6 Astralpoints with a +1 bonus on the check. He was a specialized elementarist with combat magic special abilities.

The Core rules allow you to make a useful rounded adventurer mage, MAGIC 1 will allow you to create a specialist

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Lambert
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Lambert » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:37 pm

Magic 1 is now out in Germany and so the rules either already are on the Wiki or will be soon.
There are enough people who speak German on here to give you some rough ideas. Unfortunately we are around a year behind the German releases so it might be the holiday season next year before we are getting the book.

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Morgoth Feuerklinge
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Re: New player, are spell casters weak?

Postby Morgoth Feuerklinge » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:18 am

I don't have experience with TDE5, but in TDE1 till TDE4.1 it is so, that the mage class starts as a very weak hero. He is new from school and have further much to learn. But during the hero life he becomes stronger and strong. For me, the magician is later by far the most powerful character in TDE. But it is luckily a long way to this level. The mage only have to keep care don't be in the first line in a fight.
Please excuse my bad English, I'm a beginner.

TDE since: 1998
Current TDE rule set: 4.1
Played adventures: 55


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