Alchemical Laboratory

What advantages are generally available to an Alchemist?

YES/YES - Only Witches may make use of a Witch Kitchen and Spellcaster may be taken by an Alchemist without a Tradition
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YES/NO - Only Witches may make use of a Witch Kitchen and Spellcaster may NOT be taken by an Alchemist without a Tradition
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NO/YES - A mobile Level 2 Lab which costs the same as a Witch Kitchen is generally available and Spellcaster may be taken by an Alchemist without a Tradition
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NO/NO - A mobile Level 2 Lab which costs the same as a Witch Kitchen is generally available and Spellcaster may NOT be taken by an Alchemist without a Tradition
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Total votes: 4

Gavril
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Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Gavril » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:19 pm

When considering a Healer, it would seem that Alchemy is a good ability to expand into, especially as Alchemy does not require, RAW, magical ability. However, the travelling healer (a legitimate Quack, if you will) would need a lab that was mobile. Traditionally, this would be identical to the Witch Kitchen, however that "level" of lab is listed as "Witches Only". So:

1) Is the Witch Kitchen really for Witches only? Is it permissible to have a Healer's Wagon that is functionally the same (i.e. a level 2 lab)? If not, is the
intent that Alchemy is really used only by Witches in an itinerant campaign?

On a related note, while Alchemy doesn't require Spellcaster, AE can be used to enhance it. To that end:

2) Is it be permissible, RAW, to have Spellcaster WITHOUT a Tradition to represent a particularly skilled Alchemist?
Such a character would not, obviously, be able to cast spells or use Tradition advantages, but could use their AE
for purposes of enhancing Alchemy.

I would imagine in a Low Magic setting, Alchemists would be more prevalent, but almost as mysterious, as actual wizards, and certainly as dangerous. Just curious what others think?

Shinxirus
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Shinxirus » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:54 am

Gavril wrote:1) Is the Witch Kitchen really for Witches only? Is it permissible to have a Healer's Wagon that is functionally the same (i.e. a level 2 lab)? If not, is the intent that Alchemy is really used only by Witches in an itinerant campaign?


Hmm not sure if one of the english translators made a conceptual error, but the witch kitchen can be used by anyone. The german rulebook states "The witch kitchen, which is not only used by witches, is better equiped[...]" (p.270) So, any alchemist can use a witch kitchen.

Gavril wrote:2) Is it be permissible, RAW, to have Spellcaster WITHOUT a Tradition to represent a particularly skilled Alchemist?
Such a character would not, obviously, be able to cast spells or use Tradition advantages, but could use their AE
for purposes of enhancing Alchemy.


It is not possible to have the advantage spellcaster without a tradition, see core rulebook p.274 bottom paragraph. There are two possibilities to represent magically adept alchemists who have not studied magic per se: First, by creating a master talented (Meistertalentierter), a form of magic dilettant (that is someone born with Madas gift, but never properly trained in the ways of magic) whose devolved magic ability manifests in a crafting talent, included in Aventurian Magic I. Second, a variant of the master talented, the magic alchemist, included in Aventurian Magic II. While magic dilettants lorewise don't follow a tradition, mechanically their abilities are represented as their own "traditions", albeit usually cheaper than full mages'.

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HEX the Dark
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby HEX the Dark » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:09 am

On a related note, while Alchemy doesn't require Spellcaster, AE can be used to enhance it. To that end:


There are three different "tiers" of alchemy:

Profane alchemy (or chymisitry) which does not require AE, but focusses mainly on things like soaps, perfumes etc. Every day stuff you could do at home (technically coking should be part of this, too). Things like purifying "chemicals", distilling alcohol or melting metal.
Lower/common Alchemy, which creates "magic like" effects but doesn't require AE as well. Fireworks would be one example.
Higher Alchemie, the "real" alchemy, which requires AE and creates powerful potions such as healing potions, but also includes the creation of artifacts.

Even if you're not a spell caster per se, the last one does as mention requite AE and in almost any cases has to be studied at an academy, much like a mage would do (it's also part of a mages studies).
Many mages actually earn their living just by that - and all alchemists (no matter how much AE they have) make the most of their money with profane alchemy products.
Last edited by HEX the Dark on Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gavril
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Gavril » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:38 am

Thanks! The above answers are exactly what I was looking for. I was at least a little suspecting the Witch Kitchen issue to be language errata. Do you know if/when the Aventurian Magic books will be available in English? I haven't seen these or seen them in a Kickstarter yet. The Mastercrafter conceptually sounds like a lot of the concepts I am interested in looking at, so it would be nice to see actual rules for them.

horlock
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby horlock » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:31 pm

What are the rule for master talented, the magic dilettant and the magic alchemist? One of my player want to create a low-level magic character.

Gavril
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Gavril » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:48 pm

Shinxirus wrote:It is not possible to have the advantage spellcaster without a tradition, see core rulebook p.274 bottom paragraph.


This reference is actually what makes the issue less than clear to me. "Learning a Tradition" makes it clear someone CAN learn a tradition later in life, it's just very difficult (that's a LOT of AP to save up :)), but the Spellcaster ability HAS to be taken immediately. This at least implies you can be a Spellcaster without a Tradition. "Can't use their arcane abilities in a meaningful way" could be taken as being unable to cast spells or use Tradition abilities but possibly being able to expend AE as just AE. I actually think having a "lesser" tradition for those who have arcane talent but are not actually spell casters makes a lot more sense, the English rules just seemed more than a little unclear.

HEX the Dark wrote:Higher Alchemie, the "real" alchemy, which requires AE and creates powerful potions such as healing potions


The healing potions listed on p. 272 don't show an AE requirement. Even the clearly magical Elixirs on p 273 don't show an AE cost. Is this something that didn't make it through into the English rules or is it listed somewhere else?

Shinxirus
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Shinxirus » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:47 am

Gavril wrote:This reference is actually what makes the issue less than clear to me. "Learning a Tradition" makes it clear someone CAN learn a tradition later in life, it's just very difficult (that's a LOT of AP to save up ), but the Spellcaster ability HAS to be taken immediately. This at least implies you can be a Spellcaster without a Tradition. "Can't use their arcane abilities in a meaningful way" could be taken as being unable to cast spells or use Tradition abilities but possibly being able to expend AE as just AE. I actually think having a "lesser" tradition for those who have arcane talent but are not actually spell casters makes a lot more sense, the English rules just seemed more than a little unclear.


You must begin the game with both the spellcaster advantage and a tradition. The advantage spellcaster merely represents that your charcter has an innate potential. That potential will start to manifest at around age 12 as uncontrollable, small manifestations similar to cantrips. The child must then undergo some sort of magical training (thus acquiring a tradition) in order to become a full fledged mage, or the magical potential will devolve and the character become a magic dilletant (again represented with its own tradition). The aspect about learning a tradition refers to the possibility to learn a second tradition additional to the one you acquired as a child, which btw. is impossible for magic dilletants.

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HEX the Dark
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby HEX the Dark » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:46 am

Gavril wrote:
HEX the Dark wrote:Higher Alchemie, the "real" alchemy, which requires AE and creates powerful potions such as healing potions


The healing potions listed on p. 272 don't show an AE requirement. Even the clearly magical Elixirs on p 273 don't show an AE cost. Is this something that didn't make it through into the English rules or is it listed somewhere else?



Huh, you are right. I was under the impression that you'd need a spell for that. Even in 4.1 you do not. I really thought that you'd at least would need AE for a mana/astral potion. But apparently not.
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Bosper
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby Bosper » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:15 am

Alchemy was de-magicalized in this edition, so that it is a viable option for noncasters. They will usually need a "magical" ingredient like mandragora or harpie's tears or something like that, but they arent third class alchemists any more. AE still enables to boost alchemy, but isnt a must anymore.
This is not only player friendly, but also fits the lore better than before. Especially the praios churche's "alchemy of the sun" did suffer from the lack of magic before.

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HEX the Dark
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Re: Alchemical Laboratory

Postby HEX the Dark » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:46 am

Bosper wrote:Alchemy was de-magicalized in this edition, so that it is a viable option for noncasters. They will usually need a "magical" ingredient like mandragora or harpie's tears or something like that, but they arent third class alchemists any more. AE still enables to boost alchemy, but isnt a must anymore.
This is not only player friendly, but also fits the lore better than before. Especially the praios churche's "alchemy of the sun" did suffer from the lack of magic before.



Well that was basically the whole IG-reason for the alchemy of the sun, to do it without magic. :lol:

Anyway, I don't think they had been "third class alchemists" before, and there were many recipes (more then I thought, obviously) that worked without magic before.
I am not quite sure how to feel about that change. As mentioned, an alchemist, magical or not, made most of his money by stuff like perfume and soap and stuff anyway. And you needed stuff like harpies' tears, too, even in ingredients without magic (or substitute them). So I am not sure what was gained. On the other hand I can see where they come from, moving it away from putting AE in it.
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