Elves And Spellcasting

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:30 pm

Elves have been described in the lore as good looking for example, this would leave not much room for any individualisation through advantages.
I get it, you have been mistreated by powergamers in the past, as evident by your completely exxagerated examples, but role playing is more than just a contest and it’s not automatically bad if one character happens to be better at certain things. It’s important what enhances the story and I don’t see every character being exactly equal to do much to that end. Almost all my gaming groups recently have had some form of in equality and they were better for that regardless if my character had been on the lower or upper end of the scale. You should care less about total equality and more about making a good story that fits the lore. And in there the typical elf is more capable than the typical human. You could still play untypical examples of each, but the reason for that should be the story and not any contest

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:52 pm

To put it in perspective: of the last three groups in two of them I had 500-1500 AP less than the most experienced character an my character was as involved in the story as all other characters and essential to the success of the group. The game does not explode if characters of different experience are in it, as long as they don’t play competitive.

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Bosper
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby Bosper » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:04 pm

Of course you can mix different levels of experience. But thats a playstile, one that shouldnt be enforced by basic rules.
Still the lore no where said that all elves are like the best possible humans plus magic , good looking and two-voiced. The smaller amount of advantage points for all Nonhumans just means that humans do vary more than other races between themselves. And that is supported by the lore. Elven Masterrace is a thing in Warhammer, not in Aventuria

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:29 pm

The Rules should not enforce the competitive playstyle only either. And you should not play the enforcer for it. You are only arguing for a single playstyle, but TDE offers so much more and one of the reasons for its success had been in the past that it supports a lot of different play styles. It might for a specific style not be as good as a system dedicated to that style but it always has been versatile in its approach. It almost feels like you would like to get rid of those that play more narrative or simulationist.
Yes you could ignore all the old lore but that would make the game so much less rich.
What are you going to loose if others don’t play the game like you do?

More options never hurt, restrictions that hinder certain playstyles do

Thrar
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby Thrar » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:06 pm

The design philosopy that the 5e TDE rules seem to take is that given equal experience, all characters (even including NPCs) are on an equal footing. There are no hidden bonuses or package discounts. By design, it's a quintessentially symmetric role playing game.
That's not in itself good or bad, but it appears to be a conscious decision on the part of the design team.

It would go against this design philosophy to give built-in bonuses to specific choices (the race "Elf" in this case). Instead, the designers recommend that you use different XP levels if you want some characters to have more abilities than others:

Core Rules p38 wrote:We suggest you discuss EL with your gaming group.
Your heroes can all start at the same EL, essentially creating a balanced party, or they could all start at different levels (for example, one player could create an Experienced knight while another creates the knight’s Inexperienced squire).


If in your interpretation of the world, an elf and a human with the same in-world experience would have different capabilities, your group can decide that e.g. all elves start with +50AP from birth to represent them being an elder race with innate advantages.

Whether or not that's the way you play, for a game designer I think it's important to recognize that in some groups, players will be competitive with each other. If two PCs e.g. have very similar combat abilities but one of them also gets to cast spells on top of that, some players may perceive that as unfair and get frustrated with the game.
In my opinion, starting the game off on an even footing and providing optional rules to mix it up was a good design choice, because it ensures less experienced players won't stumble over character imbalances and experienced players still have an easy way to adapt the game to their needs.

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:10 am

I totally agree that you should never get something just for free. If you get something that improves your character it should cost you AP.
But especially if you want to use this to create NPCs but also for some PCs (think of some of the races in Myranor in particular) you not only have to be flexible with the total AP but also with those assigned to advantages.
If you can agree on character X having 200 AP more, there is no reason why you should not agree on him or her also having 25 AP more in advantages (so 105 instead of 80 maximum)
As long as he does not get the extra advantages for free but still pays for it, that should be fine, shouldn’t it?

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Bosper
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby Bosper » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:45 am

That would just delay the problem. You can houserule to just have no advantage cap for everybody. But having no cap IS a free advantage.

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:58 pm

If it is considered an advantage to have the choice between more combinations of Advantages than others, then:

A it would be a disadvantage to have less choice as the elf has at the moment.
B that advantage has to have a reasonable price and can be bought.

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Bosper
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby Bosper » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:05 pm

Its not about choice, but about the amount of advantages humans having 80 AP and elves, or consequently every nonhuman 110 AP in advantages is what you demand. Blessed ones need to have a moral code , limiting their choice in disadvantages. BUt that isnt another disadvantage in itself, its just to make the game make sense. Thats why elves have to take certain advantages. Some characters just have prerequisites to make the concept work.

Being able to have more advantages than others IS an advantage. So IF you would want to implement it the elf should indeed be more expensive maybe about 30 AP for the race

bluedragon7
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Re: Elves And Spellcasting

Postby bluedragon7 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:57 pm

Bosper wrote:its just to make the game make sense. Thats why elves have to take certain advantages.
And that’s why they should have more advantages, to make the game with its roots in lore make sense.

So IF you would want to implement it the elf should indeed be more expensive maybe about 30 AP for the race

I would not have gone for that but rather give every player the AP he needs for Race in addition, but your idea, even if it kinda reintroduces package deals, is workable. If the Elf has 250 AP more he would have to spend 30 of those to unlock the ability to have additional advantages (probably restrict it to those listed as recommended)

This way Schlake and his group could have the elves they envision.

For the character creator program you have to see if that is flexible enough to do that, probably by creating the character and then adding the AP as if they had been earned in adventrures, as everything cost the same before and after gamestart it should work.


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