Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:52 am

I´m still to digest exactly what he purpose of Professions is, because it seems to be that they, just like the other packages (like cultural packages), seem to be just that, pre-made packages that simply have the maths done in advance regarding AP costs, not representing any advantage or cultural/professional directed proficiency in a specific area. I say this because I´m finding this very strange, especially because TDE actually differentiate between skill complexity (and I will comment on that, cause the complexity attributed to some skills is really mind boggling).

What I´m saying is that it seems to me that the AP costs for a profession is a simple and direct arithmetic sum using the basic cost, not taking into account specific training and as such an advantage that arises from it in terms of further developing skills in those areas. As such it´s a lot like the professional archetypes in CoC as opposed to professions on games like Rolemaster or Hackmaster (to give two extreme examples in terms of complexity). I must say I was expecting TDE to be much closer to the second case. Such as it is all packages only benefit is simply in terms of character creation speed and ease, with no real translation game wise, since the ease to which a Rogue learns or improves the pick pocket skill is the same as a Blessed one or a Mage, no matter the focus of each profession.

On the complexity attributed to each skill I´m finding it hard to understand some options. For instance Pickpocket is Improvement Cost B while Body Control is D. REALLY?!? So sprint fast or jump long is harder to improve than subterfuge/delicate actions of agility and dexterity done without others noticing? The same with climbing... Jumping longer or sprinting faster is harder than Climbing? Having done "some" gymnastics (competition level) and climbing (sporadically since I mainly do caving) I must say this is so far out that it´s mind boggling.

I would really like to understand the reasoning behind this choices.

PS: also try to translate "Gaukelei" into English, Please.

thebwt
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:08 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby thebwt » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:26 pm

Howdy!

RE: Professions and their use.

They Are just premade lists of skills points and special abilities. The cost of the profession is exactly as you say, the arithmetic sum. Your concearn about " not taking into account specific training and as such an advantage that arises from it in terms of further developing skills in those areas" is weird because isn't that exactly what investing AP into those skills is supposed to represent? They most closely correlate to gurps "packages", the name is is just a pretty box around skill investitures. There is no true "class" to hook into.


As for skill complexity decisions? I think it's not realism as much as it is game balance. Body control is a SUPER important skill to have, and if it were simple to raise, it would have a domino effect on other subsystems, conversely pick-pocketing effects one facet of the game. That's my thoughts here.
Check out the unofficial slack channel @ https://rpg-talk.com/ , join us in #the_dark_eye

Flash
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Flash » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:08 pm

That is a change TDE 5E did from 4E where some professions gave discount packages to skills and talents.
That lead to a lot of questionable min/maxing and made modifying and inventing your professions a mess.

Getting rid of that and making professions basically pre build packages to speed up character creation was
imho one of the better design decisions of 5E.

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:03 pm

That is definitely up for debate. Personally I´m starting to get that nasty feeling that I may have bet on the "wrong horse" here. Starting to see way too many sacrifices in terms of logic and realism for the "benefit" of simplification and speedier character creation. Hell, I´m starting to think that right down to it it just seems like another D&D clone, with a different "skin" and color code, but suffering from the "just simplify it and it will sell" syndrome, just like the 5th Edition D&D.

Really hope I don´t end up regretting backing this.

Teekayy
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 2:09 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Teekayy » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:54 pm

Yep, the cost table has changed for balancing reasons. More often used / more useful skills are more costly. While the core rules are held simple, there will be deep rules and even the deep rules will have two levels. For example there will be special rules for hunting. And even then there will be even more spezialised rules on hunting (type of the hunt, type of game you hunt, where you hunt, what traps you use, time of day). So a bit more realism will come back.
I think the newer System will allow for a more diversified play, because now more skills will be used. If singing were a "D" Skill just because it's hard to get better at singing, most characters wouldnt even bother with it, because it has often no uses in the adventures (I don't remember anyone of my group using it until now). Freedom and realism is fun but balancing gets rid (or at least tries to get rid) of gimp / power builds.

Flash
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Flash » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:59 pm

Thorgarth wrote:That is definitely up for debate. Personally I´m starting to get that nasty feeling that I may have bet on the "wrong horse" here. Starting to see way too many sacrifices in terms of logic and realism for the "benefit" of simplification and speedier character creation. .


"Logic" and "realism" are two words I wouldn't associate with TDE 4E. "Broken" and "Mess" are much appropriate. There were basically a bunch of super classes in a system that aimed to be a classless system. I am rather glad that they killed that in TDE 5E.

Flash
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Flash » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:14 pm

Thorgarth wrote:Hell, I´m starting to think that right down to it it just seems like another D&D clone, with a different "skin" and color code, but suffering from the "just simplify it and it will sell" syndrome, just like the 5th Edition D&D.


That is actually selling TDE short. (and calling it a D&D clone is probable rubbing a lot of German TDE fans the wrong way for historical reasons) While the trappings of TDE and D&D are the same and there are similarities in their history as dominant systems in their markets the rule systems are actually quite different and the way they are played are very different as well.

I base that on my experience on playing and game-mastering four D&D editions and three TDE Editions. But well it is still personal experience so take that with a grain of salt.

Trust me on this TDE was in dire need of some simplification. At least in the basic rules. Deep rules will probable bring back a ton of complexity.
TDE 4E drowned under its own rules set. It made freaking Rolemaster look like a light system.

A and yes I agree D&D 5E is bad. It finally made me skip a D&D edition.

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:43 pm

Flash wrote:
Thorgarth wrote:That is definitely up for debate. Personally I´m starting to get that nasty feeling that I may have bet on the "wrong horse" here. Starting to see way too many sacrifices in terms of logic and realism for the "benefit" of simplification and speedier character creation. .


"Logic" and "realism" are two words I wouldn't associate with TDE 4E. "Broken" and "Mess" are much appropriate. There were basically a bunch of super classes in a system that aimed to be a classless system. I am rather glad that they killed that in TDE 5E.


I´m not going to infer or contradict your opinion on the 4th Edition cause my knowledge is slim at best. If it had super classes in a system that aimed to be classless something was indeed wrong. But if that was it´s problem it didn´t had to be corrected simply by eliminating any bonus deriving from the key focus of a given class. Especially when, in terms of game design, the options available are so easy and direct.

Each class could be given 3 or 4 skills/groups, out of 6 or 7 to choose from, that could be learned/improved at a simple "discount" of one level in complexity, and perhaps the opposite, on those areas further from it´s focus. Nothing dramatic, BUT it would be much more logical and differentiate the knowledge and practical learning derived from each professional background. e.g. Rogue (for roguish professions replying on physical skills. Other roguish may chose from another set of skills like fast talking or persuasion) professions Climb, Pickpocket, Body control, "Gaukelei", Perception, Stealth. Choose 3 or 4 out of this to benefit of a 1level complexity reduction.

The answer was just take the easy route out. removing any such mechanism and transform this, like every other package I´m seeing in the game, completely neutral, and basically just a pre-set list of characteristics to speed things.

GTStar
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 2:16 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby GTStar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:54 pm

Package bonus were terrible. So they did right. No you are completely free in making your own charakter. No classes, no (or less) restrictions. But that has nothing to do with simplifying.

Flash
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Flash » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:05 pm

Thorgarth wrote:The answer was just take the easy route out. removing any such mechanism and transform this, like every other package I´m seeing in the game, completely neutral, and basically just a pre-set list of characteristics to speed things.


Not really. The are not taking the easy way out. They just follow a trend throughout the editions to the logical conclusion.

To understand that you need to look back quite some time. TDE 1E started out with classes not unlike D&D.
But every following edition went away from that further and further. Now with 5E they are basically class less with non magical progressions. The last remnants of the class system are the Blessed ones and the Magical Traditions.

Fundamentally they want to allow you to build the character you want to play at generation. But they don't want to let you alone in this and give you some guidance that also fits in the tone of the campaign setting. So you end up with pre build professions.

In some way a middle point between something resembling classes and total freedom that might be overwhelming for beginners or people that don't want character generation being to complex.


Return to “Rules Questions (TDE)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest