Professions and Skills - AP Cost

twincast
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby twincast » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:14 pm

Thorgarth wrote:That is definitely up for debate. Personally I´m starting to get that nasty feeling that I may have bet on the "wrong horse" here.

Well, I hope you'll still enjoy it. TDE5 is still closer to the second half of The Dark Eye's life hitherto (TDE4) than to its first (TDE1-3), after all, and I can't really think of any other RPG that closely resembles it. :?

Thorgarth wrote:Starting to see way too many sacrifices in terms of logic and realism for the "benefit" of simplification and speedier character creation.

That's actually a large part of why I won't be making the jump from TDE4(.1) to TDE5 (at least on Aventuria), the other main reason being the semi-haphazard spread of crunch across virtually all publications (the main criticism I had about D&D3(.5)e), although I must stress that it isn't wholly without changes I like (albeit very few of the major things). (That said, I am aware that many professions weren't well-balanced.) For comparison, while I still slightly prefer SR4(A) (mainly due to its character creation) over SR5, I like the latter almost as much (mainly due to the nerfing of wireless hacking), and if I ever got to play a D&D(-based) game again, I'd much rather use D&D3e (specifically PFRPG with elements from Arcana Evolved and D&D3.5e plus some house rules) than D&D5e (plus some house rules) but would still join/run the latter if asked (since I love the changes to the magic system almost as much as I hate the changes to the skill system), and well, almost everything's better than faux-D&D (i.e. the official "4th edition" which I consider a spin-off, whereas D&D3e was the actual 4th main edition of the game, so with D&D5e things properly line up again). :P

Thorgarth wrote:Hell, I´m starting to think that right down to it it just seems like another D&D clone, with a different "skin" and color code, but suffering from the "just simplify it and it will sell" syndrome, just like the 5th Edition D&D.

Well, calling it a D&D clone is going too far overall, but in regards to blessed ones it certainly applies since - unlike all other TRPG systems I know of - they used to mechanically play much differently from mages in all prior editions (fitting their lore differences). And I certainly ain't happy about the general trend toward simplification, either, but - *sigh* - these are the times we live in. :(

Thorgarth wrote:Really hope I don´t end up regretting backing this.

Fingers crossed. ;)

Cain_hu
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:24 am

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Cain_hu » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:36 am

Thorgarth wrote:I´m not going to infer or contradict your opinion on the 4th Edition cause my knowledge is slim at best. If it had super classes in a system that aimed to be classless something was indeed wrong. But if that was it´s problem it didn´t had to be corrected simply by eliminating any bonus deriving from the key focus of a given class. Especially when, in terms of game design, the options available are so easy and direct.

Each class could be given 3 or 4 skills/groups, out of 6 or 7 to choose from, that could be learned/improved at a simple "discount" of one level in complexity, and perhaps the opposite, on those areas further from it´s focus. Nothing dramatic, BUT it would be much more logical and differentiate the knowledge and practical learning derived from each professional background. e.g. Rogue (for roguish professions replying on physical skills. Other roguish may chose from another set of skills like fast talking or persuasion) professions Climb, Pickpocket, Body control, "Gaukelei", Perception, Stealth. Choose 3 or 4 out of this to benefit of a 1level complexity reduction.


Honestly, I'm in the camp who is very happy that they didn't do what you suggest here. for me any class "discount" is completely against the spirit of a classless system, and also game balance. How you spent you AP is the way to show effort and focus in a given field.

Daniël
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:52 am

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Daniël » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:14 am

The latest edition of Pendragon gets this right. You want to powergame in that game, you take the most common type of player character 'profession' in the setting, the Cymric British Christian knight. It is ever so slightly better than all other options.

In TDE 4 some of the most powergamiest professions were very obscure and rare in setting, or made relatively little sense as background for an adventurer. So yes TDE 5 does this right. Profession packages are tools for beginners and for people in a hurry and a source of inspiration for experienced players and nothing more.

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:05 am

I confess this to be a bit of idiosyncrasy from my part, and strangely or not, it´s confined to fantasy rpg´s (for instance I´m also reading atm Walkure RPG, which has a very similar approach to TDE in terms of the presentation os profession-like packages, but I didn´t find the need to for them to give any sort of advantage), even though I´ve played awesome games which are totally classless (like Metal, Magic and Lore, an absolutely brilliant game that lacks support and a big company behind it, though even I think it should simplify certain aspects, though not many. I actually think it as the potential to be one of the most awesome fantasy games ever. Combat just feels real and gritty and deadly and exciting). Hell, as a general principle I prefer classless, with freedom to build the character from scratch, BUT (and here is the crux of it), deep down I actually feel that primary focus each character´s former (or even present) life, should give them an "advantage" in progression in said areas. This seems to me the most logical and realistic way.

Like you guys state it seems to be a natural evolution in DSA, going from class system to classless, but I feel that to anyone just arriving to the game it´s going to be a mixed feeling regarding the nature of this edition. Personally reading this I get the feeling the the progression is still midway, and the professions are still and integral part of the character as it represents the focus and area of expertise, in an intrinsic way. And as such that should be reflected in the way characters evolve and progress in key areas.

But what do you guys think about the options regarding skill complexity? I just don´t see how logic should be so sacrificed for balance purposes. It really weights in on me.

Flash
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Flash » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:25 am

Thorgarth wrote:But what do you guys think about the options regarding skill complexity? I just don´t see how logic should be so sacrificed for balance purposes. It really weights in on me.


Mostly personal preference. It is not so that that the TDE 4E system of complexity per skill category lead to any more logical results then the 5E one. In 4E you had stuff like Dancing or Carousing being more difficult to learn then Treat Wounds or Metalworking. At least 5E puts some thoughts at what actually is used at the game table.

User avatar
Bosper
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:38 am

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Bosper » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:51 pm

Realism..... Yeah....no. I dont see why it iS easier for a thief to learn lockpicking than for a smith or Baker. He probably knows More at the beginning but learning it is the Same efford. Bringing it from 10 to 11 needs the same amount of skill and experience for everyone. Being a squire doesnt Make fighting more easy. If you want to get AS good AS your Knight takes the same practise for a noble boy AS it would for a merchant. Also realism would only allow to improve skills you use and then only in the fields you used them. Example : the group finished a great adventure about an intrigue in a Wizards academy. They saw a lot of magical stuff and Gwynna the witch wants to improve her magical lore Form 5 to 7 .her GM says sure you used it several times. Next session he denies her to use her full 7 Points to identify a demon because skillpoints 6+7 Werke earned at an academy that hasnt anything to do with demons.

That would be logical.but it would suck.

The AP (an outgame Mechanism) shows how exoerienced a character is overall. The oder system gäbe penalties to everyone who wanted a Mord rounded and Interesses Charakter.
Old: i got X AP i could either get dancing 2 vor wo und tratment 4 well it would be stupid to waste those.points to be a Bad dancer.
New: 6 AP ..i could get dancing 6 to show my interest in society and fun or wiund treatment 1 and 2AP left. OK i take the more fluffy dancing over one point of first aid.

I play tde5 for More than a Year and Charakters and play only profited


P.s. sorry for any german-autocorrect mess. Its terrible to write english From a mobile phone

User avatar
Lambert
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 2:13 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Lambert » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:56 pm

I completely agree with Bosper (and others). I love that the system is without classes.
Not only does that mean you can create exactly the character you want without needing to pick the right class but also it means you can let characters develop through the game.

If you play a squire who goes out on adventure he might well see his master fall to poison and treachery and swear to himself not to follow in the footsteps which doomed his master but instead to spend his time becoming a sneaky git who used poison and other not knightly skills and way to get his work done. You wouldn't ever worry that you wasted points in picking the "squire" class when now you are no longer following the narrow path it grants you bonuses for.

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:11 pm

@ Bosper.

Well, if you don´t see why it would be easier for a professional of the field, who works those skills day in and day out, to progress and evolve than it would be for an amateur, who happen to have an interest in a number of skills but which focus lies elsewhere, who uses such skills sporadically and lacks the everyday contact with it, then I guess there´s not much to discuss ;). Just an example picking the Squire and a peasant (a stable boy by profession let´s say). Both wanted to learn the use of Chain weapons which will be a new weapon to them (they only have the default SR 6). This actually the first weapon the Stable boy has the chance to learn, since he does´t have much free time other then cleaning and water the horses (and moneys, and the ocasional ox), cleaning the stables, etc, etc. The Squire on the other hand has received extensive training in other combat techniques, and is well costumed to use weapons in combat and sparring/training. So you think it´s logical that both will have the same ease, and will take the same amount of time and effort, to learn how to wield a morningstar? REALLY? If it was a farmhand used to beat the wheat with the peasant´s flail tool I could understand the lack of difference in learning such a weapon, but THAT would be a happy coincidence with two very different approaches but who actually had some amount of background experience that would make them, somehow "similar". Not the stable boy, or a scholar who never had even seen such a weapon let alone seen it used or wield it.

On a diferente note I can´t see why having a bonus in a specific set of skills restricts you from following or investing in different skills or moving in a different path. It´s just not as easy since it fall outside his training and conditioning. And again, I do not defend a strict professional path, not by a long shot. Quite the opposite. I just don´t see the need to deny the existence of a mechanism that favor, to a small degree, the learning of a certain group of skills that represent the core of a given profession. One level diference in complexity is NOTHING that would unbalance the game, and yes, to me at least, would make more sense.

And what I´m seeing a lot, almost omnipresently, is the comparison of this edition of TDE to former editions, and not an absolute and critical evaluation of this one by itself, by it´s own merits. Most comments are along the lines of "the 4th was a mess, this one is better ", so it´s better not that is good or great, just not as bad.

User avatar
Bosper
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:38 am

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Bosper » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:17 am

The training of an Individual is shown in one thing. Its skill points. And a skill value of 10 represents the same amount of training for everyone.they know the same and can do the same. I cant see why the same amount of knowledge and skill should be easier to achieve for some. Charakter A starts with that training in bis backround. Charakter B achieves it after Chargen. But its still the same amount. No difference.they learned the same skill the same way .by practise and experience. AP Bonuses just push you into a class and make some better than others. Its just a bad mechanism. TDE Characters are no experts Form the beginning. They are apprentices, the profession is just a background ,their class is hero, for all of them. There is no"haha you wanted to be a farmhand that becomes a hero.enjoy feeding the horses like a pro and cooking us dinner.i in the meantime increase my fighting skill for a few AP"

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Professions and Skills - AP Cost

Postby Thorgarth » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:36 am

Bosper wrote:The training of an Individual is shown in one thing. Its skill points. And a skill value of 10 represents the same amount of training for everyone.they know the same and can do the same. I cant see why the same amount of knowledge and skill should be easier to achieve for some. Charakter A starts with that training in bis backround. Charakter B achieves it after Chargen. But its still the same amount. No difference.they learned the same skill the same way .by practise and experience. AP Bonuses just push you into a class and make some better than others. Its just a bad mechanism. TDE Characters are no experts Form the beginning. They are apprentices, the profession is just a background ,their class is hero, for all of them. There is no"haha you wanted to be a farmhand that becomes a hero.enjoy feeding the horses like a pro and cooking us dinner.i in the meantime increase my fighting skill for a few AP"


Wrong on so many accounts Bosper... at least in my very own and personal opinion. And starting from your last point the fact is that you are factually wrong. The default power level for Characters is "Experienced:
p. 39
"Typical Heroes
Heroes in The Dark Eye typically start at an EL of Experienced, so their initial maximum scores are 14 for attributes, 10 for skills, and 12 for combat
techniques. They start out with 3 FtP, unless they buy certain".

On the same page, the squire is actually given as example of an inexperienced character, EL 1, to an experienced Knight. This is factual, not a matter of opinion.

Next I would like to partially agree with you. A skill value of 10 represents the same skill level of 10, of knowledge and capability. The only diference may be the time and effort it took to reach that. If you have invested, say, 10 years in a specific field, training hard, day in and day out, I think it should be easy to understand that you have a familiarity with the basics, with the training routines, with the way the core skills work, their synergies, their similarities, that helps you better understand them, and as such advance than a guy who never actually trained or work in the field. Of course he can achieve the same level, it just won´t do it as easily or in te same time. Again the same example. Let´s pretend I´ve been training hard for 5 years in hand to hand combat, and some melee weapons, like knife, staff and quarterstaff. I know the training routines, the sparring drills, and I´ve been in actually fights, where it counts. I now want to learn to fight with swords. Next to me, the same stable boy who´s experienced "wielding" a weapon amounts to using the fork to lift and/or remove the manure and feed of the animals, gets a boon from the local baron because he actually went hero and saved his ass from falling from his horse when it tried to bolt. Shit, he never even picked a sword before, let alone brandish one. So you want to say to us that both the fighter and the stable boy will take the same amount of time and training to raise from the default SR of 6 to SR 7? As the rules are the answer is easy, yes, both with take the same amount of effort, which amounts to the same amount of AP cost. What I´m asking is if THAT is logical or even reasonable? I reckon you will say yes...

That this changes was made to simplify the rules or even to better balance the game I understand. Don´t agree with it but can understand the reason behind it. Saying that it is the most logical and realistic approach vs the approach I gave, I really can´t understand it.


Return to “Rules Questions (TDE)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest