Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Postby Thorgarth » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:22 am

The mechanism regarding the use of shield seem to be a bit ambiguous in it´s serious componentes, especially when it comes to having to apply or not a penalty for using it Off-Hand.

The most important issue that should be clarified, in my view, is the the existence of any differentiation between the use of shield to parry using it with and without the combat technique Shields, when it comes to incurring in the off-hand penalty according to p. 238. The bonus is clear. If you use the shield to parry passively, not using the CT Shields, you add the value of the shield, If you have the CT Shields and use it actively you double the shield parry bonus (and use that Combat Technique stats like any other CT). The problem arises from the way the upper right corner box on p. 233 is written, which seems to indicate that only characters with CT Shields avoid incurring in the penalty for using a shield in the off-hand:

"If you have the combat technique Shields, parrying with a shield doubles the shield’s parry bonus and doesn’t incur a penalty for using the off hand (see page 238)."

Interpreting it "contrario sensu" it seems to indicate that if you DO NOT have the CT Shields any such use will incur in penalties for using it in Off-Hand, even for parrying, which then seems to contradict the rules under Two Weapon Close Combat on p. 238, which states that "Defenses with shields don’t suffer the penalty, but attacks with shields do." Not mentioning the need to have the CT Shields to be applied, hence using the shield defensively (for parrying purposes) NEVER incurs in penalty for using it Off-hand, and neither for using it in conjunction with a weapon (hence two weapon Close Combat) while parrying. So the -4 for off-hand and the -2 for two weapons use do not apply to shield use when parrying it, be the character doing it having the CT Shields or Not.

This seems a clear contradiction that needs to be clarified.

Teekayy
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 2:09 pm

Re: Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Postby Teekayy » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:10 am

I think they wrote that passage to clarify that you wont get a off-hand penalty DESPITE using it actively in the off-hand. If youre using an off-hand weapon for parade you will get the penalty.

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Bosper
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:38 am

Re: Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Postby Bosper » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:07 am

Yup shields and parrying weapons dont get a penalty the CT just increases the usefulness

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Postby Thorgarth » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:54 am

That´s what makes more sense taking into account the rules for Two Weapon Combat, which means they should rephrase what´s written in upper right corner box on p. 233, which seems to indicate that only characters with CT Shields avoid incurring in the penalty for using a shield in the off-hand:

Where it reads "If you have the combat technique Shields, parrying with a shield doubles the shield’s parry bonus and doesn’t incur a penalty for using the off hand (see page 238)." should read something like "If you have the combat technique Shields, parrying with a shield doubles the shield’s parry bonus(see page 238). The "(...)and doesn’t incur a penalty for using the off hand (...)" should be removed since it applies whether you have the CT or not.

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Bosper
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:38 am

Re: Shield Parry, Combat technique Shields and Off-Hand Penalties

Postby Bosper » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:11 pm

yeah, i get that the intention was to clarify it, but i guess it would be better somewhere else. maybe as addendum in the part about the off hand penalty "[...] Reactions with a shield or parrying weapon never get a penalty for using the off hand" or something like that


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