Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Thorgarth
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Re: Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Postby Thorgarth » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:49 am

I agree with you Bosper. Not every surprise situation arises from ambush. I dare say that the vast majority of surprise situations arises from random or unexpected actions/facts and can surprise one side of both sides.

That´s why I don´t understand why surprise wasn´t given a more detailed attention, with useful and precise information from what situations can generate surprise, what mechanics to apply ...e.g. what rolls to make. Is it just perception rolls or did they have in mind other types of surprise roll? Because perception in itself serves to avoid being surprised NOT shaking off the effects of surprise (like I said in an earlier post, I will use the Initiative stat for said rolls).

As it stands the relevant information is scarce and spread around the book, with ambiguous reference to surprises checks don´t in effect are not mentioned nor dissected anywhere. It´s true that the Surprise" status can be gained from several different "sources", but said examples are very scarce in the game and not compelled in any systematic way.

I´m not very worried about me. Damn, I´m used to deal with this stuff in a blink of an eye and improvised BUT it´s sure to create some confusion or interpretation problems if you are a n00b. Rules need to be clear and presented in a systematic way, and not spread all over the place with no real cohesion. For instance, Surprise should have a detailed section in the Combat chapter, which would include specific information on ambush and other situations that could result in such condition or status. A column and a half, perhaps a page, should be enough, but as it stands it just ain´t enough. At the very least make it clear that the so called "surprise" check mentioned in Alertness special ability is a simple perception roll.

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Bosper
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Re: Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Postby Bosper » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:15 pm

there is no need for further rolls. if you are surprised you lose a round of action. Thats it. No need to make the system more complicated. Thats against the idea of fifth edition.This can be avoided by perception or by using the special ability and spending a FtP.If you cant do that you are surprised for a round and then you shake it off automatically.
I dont see why this should be explained in a whole page of text.

Thorgarth
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Postby Thorgarth » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:16 pm

I get it that TDE strives to be a simple system, with next to no crunch, so it´s perfectly understandable that surprise should be governed with only one roll and a direct and simple system. That should not invalidate, though, that it should be self explanatory and clear.

You say that a perception roll it´s THE default mechanic applied to any possible case of surprise (other than other more specific cases like Vigilance or those automatic cases like fumbles on Pickpocket rolls), the fact though is that the rules do NOT say that. The Paragraph on Surprise status don´t even mention any kind of roll to avoid being put in the state of surprise (first fault). Second fault it refers to Ambush on page 237, which does NOT mention any other cause for surprise, and the only roll states refers, surprise surprise, to avoid being ambushed, hence a perception (detect ambush) vs Stealth (hide).

Would´t you think advisable to expand upon other possible causes of the surprise state? But hey, Alertness on p.246 THEN speaks about a certain "Surprise roll", but which is not directly identified in it´s formula. You say it it´s a Perception roll. I tend to agree, but shouldn´t that be clearly stated and exemplified?

So we have a paragraph on surprise which tells next to 0 and another 2 paragraphs on ambush, which don´t expand on other causes for surprise, plus an assorted, and spread all over the book, rules that apply ou concerns surprise. Would´t it been better to have a more systematic approach to the whole problem, detailing the premises and associated mechanism like what is the stated "surprise roll", with a small table summing it up?

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Bosper
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Re: Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Postby Bosper » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:12 am

Thorgarth wrote:I get it that TDE strives to be a simple system, with next to no crunch, so it´s perfectly understandable that surprise should be governed with only one roll and a direct and simple system. That should not invalidate, though, that it should be self explanatory and clear.

You say that a perception roll it´s THE default mechanic applied to any possible case of surprise (other than other more specific cases like Vigilance or those automatic cases like fumbles on Pickpocket rolls), the fact though is that the rules do NOT say that. The Paragraph on Surprise status don´t even mention any kind of roll to avoid being put in the state of surprise (first fault). Second fault it refers to Ambush on page 237, which does NOT mention any other cause for surprise, and the only roll states refers, surprise surprise, to avoid being ambushed, hence a perception (detect ambush) vs Stealth (hide).

Would´t you think advisable to expand upon other possible causes of the surprise state? But hey, Alertness on p.246 THEN speaks about a certain "Surprise roll", but which is not directly identified in it´s formula. You say it it´s a Perception roll. I tend to agree, but shouldn´t that be clearly stated and exemplified?

So we have a paragraph on surprise which tells next to 0 and another 2 paragraphs on ambush, which don´t expand on other causes for surprise, plus an assorted, and spread all over the book, rules that apply ou concerns surprise. Would´t it been better to have a more systematic approach to the whole problem, detailing the premises and associated mechanism like what is the stated "surprise roll", with a small table summing it up?

Of course it would be better, but it wouldnt need a whole page, "Surprise and Ambush" could be explained in a few simple sentences. Sadly it isnt. Trying to explain every possible situation that can be a surprise would just lead to the assumption that every other situation doesnt work like the examples. I'd give the general surprise rule "perception (or SA with Ftp) or you lose a rounds worth of actions" and the example could be an ambush. Thats all it would need.

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julianwolfe
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Re: Ambush, surprise and Alertness

Postby julianwolfe » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:30 pm

Bosper wrote: Thats not an ambush (its just a very constructed example) but if P2 is surprised, he gets hit by the door and his own dark eye can get him a photoshoot for the next Cover of TDE.


Haha I have nothing to contribute except that I find this quote hilarious :lol:


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