Mage Guild questions

thelordoftherats
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Mage Guild questions

Postby thelordoftherats » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:27 pm

1) How long and what is the cost to learn new spells?
2) Can members of different orders learn spells at other academies? i.e. a Black Mage of Aran learning spells at a White mage academy in Nostria.
3) How do the other academies view each other politcally?

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Bosper
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Bosper » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:17 am

White guild usually only accepts their own members with rare exceptions for Grey mages of perfect Reputation, black mages wont get their Support ever.

Greys cooperate with everyone If their intentions are good and they dont use Dark Kinds of Magic.

Black Magic is free for all, but Not very cooperative. You have to earn Your knowledge either by Finding it yourself or paying immense sums of Money.

1) cost: cost of The book it is contained in (Lots) or whatever The teacher wants (Lots again) there is No fixed amount. Guild libraries Help with Common spells but are for members of that guild only and in The Case of The black guild are only available against a huge Fee.


A rule of thumb could be complexity of The Spell (A1,B2,C3,D4) x 200 silvers (x2 if Not Your guild) (+random costs for rarity, Reputation,whatever)

That would Come Close to The 4th ed. Examples

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Bosper
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Bosper » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:27 am

There is no time given how Long learning Takes (only for languages 4/40/400 days of 4hours per Level) activating a spell on 0 shouldnt Take too Long.

thelordoftherats
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby thelordoftherats » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:14 am

Thank you Bosper!

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Morgoth Feuerklinge
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Morgoth Feuerklinge » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:00 am

Bosper wrote:There is no time given how Long learning Takes (only for languages 4/40/400 days of 4hours per Level) activating a spell on 0 shouldnt Take too Long.

That must be new in TDE5. In TDE4.1 there are rules how long it takes to learn a new spell:

Activating a spell requires an teacher, which can be a companion, the actual teacher, an artifact or a suitably qualified book. The learning time depending on where you learn from. Learning a thesis requires AP / 2, but no additional effort for activation is necessary. Learning from a teacher requires AP in time units. According to WdZ 73 and WdS 170, activating a spell (except in the upper case) requires AP / 2 units of time.

Same with the cost. The costs depending on where and how you learn the spell. In WdZ 80 as a guideline value for the costs of a thesis (8 - availability) x complexity x 50 in silver.
Please excuse my bad English, I'm a beginner.

TDE since: 1998
Current TDE rule set: 4.1
Played adventures: 55

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Bosper
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Bosper » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:42 am

yeah but you can't use 4th ed numbers in 5th. Not even close. Plus learning shouldnt be much an issue or hindrance. And a formula for cost is really unrealistic as well. And it wont work either since money value changed, availability isnt a thing anymore (or changed a lot), complexity changed enourmously (4th ed: its how difficult it is ingame/ 5th ed: its how useful it is in a game,as a means of balancing).

Spells arent common goods and shouldnt be listed and argued over. Common spells should not be hard to get, but under which conditions they can be should be the Game Masters decision. An expedition might be more interesting than paying 40 dukats "because the list says so!" - says the guild magister : "what list and who cares?"

Starting to calculate learning times to activate spells just opens the door for discussions how many fights the warrior needs to fight to improve his swordskill, how long he must make the party wait to learn feint III etc. Nothing of this improves gameplay. Learning something on 0 shouldnt take much time. Increasing the skill value afterwards should match the gaming group's style of play.

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Morgoth Feuerklinge
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Morgoth Feuerklinge » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:25 am

Of course, I agree with you. This price guideline is only a starting point for the game master. And of course, it depends on where you buy the spell and from whom. And if the spell is accessible at all is determined by the game master. I am rather a strict master, because who likes to give away well-kept secrets?

I am aware that TDE5 has changed a lot in the world (e. g. the liturgies). However, I assumed that things like "learning time" remained. Why should a scholar of magical arts for the Igni have to learn much less time than 2 years ago?
Please excuse my bad English, I'm a beginner.

TDE since: 1998
Current TDE rule set: 4.1
Played adventures: 55

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Bosper
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Bosper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:34 pm

Why are there magic glyphs over night from TDE 3 to 4? why are there Durro Dun that werent there before? Why are there spell modifications that werent there before? Every edition makes the changes that they think are improving the game. "We have to wait 12 weeks in town and make 36 rolls to determine what happened" isnt the best kind of experience in my opinion.
When does learning time really matter that much? And how does it improve the game? If there is any downtime and you got the Points to activate the spell, just do it. Getting the spell should be the interesting part, not sitting in front of a book in high detail.

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Morgoth Feuerklinge
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Morgoth Feuerklinge » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:39 am

Things like runes or new spells were explained in the game world in such a way that they were rediscovered or just invented. Another example is the lines of force that have been forgotten for centuries.

However, I think it is unrealistic and impossible to explain within the game world that learning a new spell doesn't take time. Of course, any group can do what they want. After all, the TDE rules are very elastic. I for my part and the players of our group prefer it realistically. This means that the mages needs time to train himself/herself. Since it doesn't always work during adventures and it's not realistic that the heroes are constantly on their way, we always add "in-between times". For example, our heroes have a retreat in Gareth, where they can spend months without adventure. Gareth assumes the role of a hub, which brings many advantages:

  • Other heroes can join the group (guest player, substitution etc.)
  • The heroes have time for advanced training
  • Heroes can spend their captured money.
  • The heroes have the possibility (we do this through a forum) to lead a private life, e. g. a wife etc. This increases the motivation if, for example, a villain threatens the life of the family. And the heroes have a lot to talk about when they see each other again.
  • In a city like Gareth, it's easy to start a new adventure because many clients, etc.
  • You can bridge the time until the next adventure.
Since this is how we handle it, the players really enjoy it and look forward to learning a new spell during this time.
Please excuse my bad English, I'm a beginner.

TDE since: 1998
Current TDE rule set: 4.1
Played adventures: 55

Flash
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Re: Mage Guild questions

Postby Flash » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:32 pm

Bosper wrote:When does learning time really matter that much?


It doesn't for most people. Simple as that. I am really glad that they got rid of learning times or costs in the Basic rule book.

They will sooner or later add them in back as focus rules for those that enjoy tracking that stuff but focus rules is exactly where this stuff belongs. Among the goals of 5E was to make the game easier to get into. And at least here they succeeded by cutting down the bookkeeping a lot.

The slight loss in "realism" (always thin ice in a fictional game) is imho marginal compared to the gain.

I have yet to actually see or play in a TDE 4E group that doesn't pretty much ignore learning times. :lol:


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