Mastery Perk

Kuildeous
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 am

So yeah, Super-Skill can get mathy then. If you want to be efficient in the long run, you should buy the perk when you max out your skill. The savings will be better:

Buy at 3 adds > get 4, 5 free > worth 9 XP
Buy at 5 adds > get 6, 7 free > worth 13 XP
Buy at 8 adds > get 9, 10 free > worth 19 XP

And technically, the last one is priceless since you can't get 9 adds (that I know of yet) at all, no matter how many XP you have.

So basically you have to choose to apply the perk while it's cheap (5 XP vs. 9 XP) or wait it out to save XP in the long run. Mastery doesn't have that issue since you can't take Mastery until you hit 5 adds.

utsukushi
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby utsukushi » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 am

Yeah...

Is Darrell sure?

Just saying Super Skill and Super Attribute (and potentially future similar bonuses that other Realms might offer - perhaps racial Perks or whatnot) are outside the XP system seems to work out a lot better from a lot of angles.

If it's just an immediate add of +2 to the Skill, and not a `bonus' of +2, this also brings in the question of whether that ability to surpass the 5-point limit is a permanent effect, or if that occurs when you buy the Perk. Eg., if you have the Skill at +3 and buy the Perk, you now have the Skill at +5. You can't go to +6 through normal Skill advancement, so... there's a strong argument for saying that's it, you're done, you just got to get there faster. But if you raise your Skill to +5 first and then buy the Perk, clearly you go to +7. This question, of course, just repeats itself when you link it to Mastery: If you've already increased to +7 and then buy Mastery, can you still only go to 8, as Mastery states? Or can you still go to 10, as you undeniably would have had you bought Mastery, increased to +8, and then bought Super Skill? And if the latter, why does it now cost you 19 XP for those last two points, where if you'd just done it in a different order, it'd be, like, 11, maybe 13? (And let's face it - potentially as little as 7.)

And nevermind linking it to a gadget and putting the gadget down; what if someone Disconnects, then buys adds at their temporarily lower Rank while the Perk isn't active, and then Re-connects and gets the Perk back? You can't say, "It's still part of their character," because that's not guaranteed -- if they Transform, they won't get their Super Skill back. What if they do actually Transform, and later Transform back?

Plus, this makes it pretty much a Must Buy once you have a Skill at +5. I mean, Skill Levels 6 and 7; that's 13 XP worth, for probably 7 or 9 XP on the Perk. And it strongly discourages buying it at character creation, since it "gets better" - a lot better. And if you really do want it, then you just make that your plan: Increase to +4 after the first adventure, +5 after the second, and then buy your Super Skill after session 3, as your very first Perk, effectively getting 8 free XP.


...If it's just done as a bonus, it doesn't matter when you buy it, it doesn't bring up any weird questions, and there's no way, and no incentive, to `game' it. It's neither discouraged at creation, nor something every Nile Hero has to have within the first five games.

And as I say, this likewise settles all of those questions for possible future Perks, which are otherwise going to have them, and presumably with the same confusing answers.

If you have a Digan CyberArm, it gives +2 strength, but just to that arm. But let's face it, `that arm' is going to apply to most of your Strength-effects from then on --- it is not that different from a Pulp Hero who gets +2 to his Fire Combat but only because of his SuperScope Rifle. So does it increase the cost to improve your Strength later? If you guys add Cyber in the CP or Tharkold books that can boost skills or attributes, they're going to have the same issues.

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Hobbes
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Hobbes » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:07 am

Kuildeous wrote:So yeah, Super-Skill can get mathy then. If you want to be efficient in the long run, you should buy the perk when you max out your skill. The savings will be better:

Buy at 3 adds > get 4, 5 free > worth 9 XP
Buy at 5 adds > get 6, 7 free > worth 13 XP
Buy at 8 adds > get 9, 10 free > worth 19 XP

And technically, the last one is priceless since you can't get 9 adds (that I know of yet) at all, no matter how many XP you have.

So basically you have to choose to apply the perk while it's cheap (5 XP vs. 9 XP) or wait it out to save XP in the long run. Mastery doesn't have that issue since you can't take Mastery until you hit 5 adds.


Or, take the +4 at chargen and have your SuperSkill at +7, and then pick up Skill Mastery Perk in something else and have two skills above +5.

Super skill only lets you exceed the usual +5 Maximum, by my reading you're still capped at +8 even with Super Skill as that limit is not specifically addressed.

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InertiaKitty
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby InertiaKitty » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 am

Hobbes wrote:Or, take the +4 at chargen and have your SuperSkill at +7, and then pick up Skill Mastery Perk in something else and have two skills above +5.


I thought you couldn't start a skill above +3 (without SuperSkill) at CharGen.
"Whaddaya mean 'Twinkies are even a contradiction in Core Earth'?!?!?"

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Hobbes
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Hobbes » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:04 am

Correct, I was responding to a Post-chargen situation where the Super Skill Perk is delayed. You could also take Super Skill at Chargen, get to +7 with two Enhancements, and then post-chargen pick up Mastery and have a second skill greater than +5.

Kuildeous
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:22 am

As it stands now, the Super Skill is a bit of a risk in a long-term campaign.

Say you buy it early with 4 adds in the skill. You enhance it to +4 to give you 8 adds in the skill. Then later you decide to buy up the 9th add for 9 XP.

But then you transform and lose the pulp power perk. You drop from 9 adds to 5 adds. But you ended up spending 9 XP for that fifth add.

Of course, Torg is a chaotic game, and there are no guarantees, so one may argue that this is the risk one takes. It's not quite as clean as something like GURPS or Champions.

Flash
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Flash » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 am

InertiaKitty wrote:I thought you couldn't start a skill above +3 (without SuperSkill) at CharGen.


Well to be very technical you only have that limit only about 3-5 times during a campaign at the very first session.

After that you will mostly do Base + XPs Chargens where the limit doesn't really apply.
The longer the campaign the more of these generations you will have because of character death and player fluctuation at the table. It consider it very likely that you will do more of the generations with added XPs then base generations.

Flash
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Flash » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:51 am

TorgHacker wrote:Yes your stat increases immediately and directly, so the XP cost will go up for the next add.


Bluntly speaking I find this counter-intuitive and also problematic. As others already pointed out this will create all sorts of strange and often negative after effects down the line when more stuff gets added to the line or when the campaign gets longer.

That lands on my house rule pile. I must say for all the elegance the system has as soon as XPs come into play it gets somewhat uneven and weird.

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Hobbes
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby Hobbes » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:05 pm

Kuildeous wrote:As it stands now, the Super Skill is a bit of a risk in a long-term campaign.

Say you buy it early with 4 adds in the skill. You enhance it to +4 to give you 8 adds in the skill. Then later you decide to buy up the 9th add for 9 XP.

But then you transform and lose the pulp power perk. You drop from 9 adds to 5 adds. But you ended up spending 9 XP for that fifth add.

Of course, Torg is a chaotic game, and there are no guarantees, so one may argue that this is the risk one takes. It's not quite as clean as something like GURPS or Champions.


Super Skill doesn't specifically state you can exceed the +8 limit on Skill Adds, so I'm not sure you can even do that in the first place. But a Transformed character is a "do over" you don't lose XP, you re-build the character. Race stays the same, everything else is tossed in the blender and you build a similar character from the new Cosm with the same XP total as the rest of the group. All else leads to madness. One might even say that the previous character contradicted with reality and reality forced it to stop contradicting ;)

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TiaMaster
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Re: Mastery Perk

Postby TiaMaster » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:31 pm

utsukushi wrote:Yeah...

Is Darrell sure?

Just saying Super Skill and Super Attribute (and potentially future similar bonuses that other Realms might offer - perhaps racial Perks or whatnot) are outside the XP system seems to work out a lot better from a lot of angles.

If it's just an immediate add of +2 to the Skill, and not a `bonus' of +2, this also brings in the question of whether that ability to surpass the 5-point limit is a permanent effect, or if that occurs when you buy the Perk. Eg., if you have the Skill at +3 and buy the Perk, you now have the Skill at +5. You can't go to +6 through normal Skill advancement, so... there's a strong argument for saying that's it, you're done, you just got to get there faster. But if you raise your Skill to +5 first and then buy the Perk, clearly you go to +7. This question, of course, just repeats itself when you link it to Mastery: If you've already increased to +7 and then buy Mastery, can you still only go to 8, as Mastery states? Or can you still go to 10, as you undeniably would have had you bought Mastery, increased to +8, and then bought Super Skill? And if the latter, why does it now cost you 19 XP for those last two points, where if you'd just done it in a different order, it'd be, like, 11, maybe 13? (And let's face it - potentially as little as 7.)

And nevermind linking it to a gadget and putting the gadget down; what if someone Disconnects, then buys adds at their temporarily lower Rank while the Perk isn't active, and then Re-connects and gets the Perk back? You can't say, "It's still part of their character," because that's not guaranteed -- if they Transform, they won't get their Super Skill back. What if they do actually Transform, and later Transform back?

Plus, this makes it pretty much a Must Buy once you have a Skill at +5. I mean, Skill Levels 6 and 7; that's 13 XP worth, for probably 7 or 9 XP on the Perk. And it strongly discourages buying it at character creation, since it "gets better" - a lot better. And if you really do want it, then you just make that your plan: Increase to +4 after the first adventure, +5 after the second, and then buy your Super Skill after session 3, as your very first Perk, effectively getting 8 free XP.


...If it's just done as a bonus, it doesn't matter when you buy it, it doesn't bring up any weird questions, and there's no way, and no incentive, to `game' it. It's neither discouraged at creation, nor something every Nile Hero has to have within the first five games.

And as I say, this likewise settles all of those questions for possible future Perks, which are otherwise going to have them, and presumably with the same confusing answers.

If you have a Digan CyberArm, it gives +2 strength, but just to that arm. But let's face it, `that arm' is going to apply to most of your Strength-effects from then on --- it is not that different from a Pulp Hero who gets +2 to his Fire Combat but only because of his SuperScope Rifle. So does it increase the cost to improve your Strength later? If you guys add Cyber in the CP or Tharkold books that can boost skills or attributes, they're going to have the same issues.


This.
I don't really feel like explaining this to players, either.


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