Stacking internal and external armor

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Wotan
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby Wotan » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:26 pm

Atama wrote:To be fair, flak jackets were worn in WWII for exactly that purpose; to protect against shrapnel or projectiles that penetrate the hull. At least on bombers, not sure about tanks. Often you’re being protected against broken pieces of the hull itself.

But again this isn’t a simulator of modern or historical realistic action. It’s about silly and exciting stuff you’d see in an action-adventure film or TV show.

More Die Hard and Indiana Jones, less Saving Private Ryan and Blackhawk Down.

Totally agree with you on the flavour of Torg's action, it just seemed like an odd example to end a pro-simulationist post on.

In fairness I do recall stories of WW2 tankers scrabbling to get out of their tanks after their tank suffered a hit which breached the armour- being petrol powered, Sherman's were a bit famous for catching fire shortly after a penetrating hit. Equally though, I think a lot of tank crews were wiped out when their tank got breached. To be fair, I don't have any firm stats on survival rates from WW2 tank warfare to hand though.
With more modern, e.g. HEAT or DU, rounds I'd be surprised if many crews survive their tank being breached.

So, in TORG terms, I guess you might have a chance vs NE AT rounds but would be royally screwed vs CE, PP, Th or CP AT weapons. Except that this is heroic action, & SKs get to soak. *shrug*
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:30 pm

Spatula wrote:Speaking of D&D 3e (and Pathfinder), I suppose in TE it could be said that there's just an "armor" bonus, and no "natural armor" bonus that could be stacked with the former. Which is probably for the best, for everyone. Are the players really going to want to face a Tharkold cyber-dragon (hey, Asyle is right next door...) with an extra +4 to Toughness? I think, if anything, such a beast would show the cracks in the system more than allowing armor bonuses to stack would.


At one point we had edeinos having +2 natural armor which stacked with normal armor. It made getting rid of edeinos mooks a slog.

If I recall correctly, I think we eventually realized that the _only_ reason we had natural armor in the game was because of edeinos, so we got rid of it.
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ProfessorK
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby ProfessorK » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:43 am

TorgHacker wrote:So it's worth it to Spatula, but not worth it to ProfessorK, and that's alright.

If it was worth it 100% of the time to everyone we did something wrong, because then it's a no-brainer and we tried really hard to eliminate no-brainers.


Fair point :)

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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby ProfessorK » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:47 am

TorgHacker wrote:With regards to the Zan Endoskeleton and Trigon Body plating...folks are missing something.

There is no Max Dex with those.


Thats a good point.

Unfiorunately the rules make it difficult to use that. The Endoskeleton costs ALL your first perk cyber points so you are unlikely to buy it off the bat. However later its extremely difficult to raise your DEX much. So its really too expensive to take advantage of as an upgrade either.

I suppose you could put points into dex at build time in anticipation of dropping the external armor later...

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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby Gargoyle » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:53 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Spatula wrote:Speaking of D&D 3e (and Pathfinder), I suppose in TE it could be said that there's just an "armor" bonus, and no "natural armor" bonus that could be stacked with the former. Which is probably for the best, for everyone. Are the players really going to want to face a Tharkold cyber-dragon (hey, Asyle is right next door...) with an extra +4 to Toughness? I think, if anything, such a beast would show the cracks in the system more than allowing armor bonuses to stack would.


At one point we had edeinos having +2 natural armor which stacked with normal armor. It made getting rid of edeinos mooks a slog.

If I recall correctly, I think we eventually realized that the _only_ reason we had natural armor in the game was because of edeinos, so we got rid of it.


A really good change. I had created a warrior edeinos character for a player that wanted to run one in the Free RPG day adventure, and gave her the +2 armor from earlier stats I saw at GenCon; can confirm, with Deathclaws she was a holy terror compared to the other PCs, and of course the enemy edeinos were a pain too. At the time I wasn't sure it was OP, but it felt like it, and I couldn't help but think that I'd end up with an all edeinos party sometimes. So in addition to being a good general rule, it helped balance the races out a bit.
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:21 pm

ProfessorK wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:With regards to the Zan Endoskeleton and Trigon Body plating...folks are missing something.

There is no Max Dex with those.


Thats a good point.

Unfiorunately the rules make it difficult to use that. The Endoskeleton costs ALL your first perk cyber points so you are unlikely to buy it off the bat. However later its extremely difficult to raise your DEX much. So its really too expensive to take advantage of as an upgrade either.

I suppose you could put points into dex at build time in anticipation of dropping the external armor later...


Remember that Max Dex includes boosted attributes too, like enhance.
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
A really good change. I had created a warrior edeinos character for a player that wanted to run one in the Free RPG day adventure, and gave her the +2 armor from earlier stats I saw at GenCon; can confirm, with Deathclaws she was a holy terror compared to the other PCs, and of course the enemy edeinos were a pain too. At the time I wasn't sure it was OP, but it felt like it, and I couldn't help but think that I'd end up with an all edeinos party sometimes. So in addition to being a good general rule, it helped balance the races out a bit.


It became a real slog.
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby Spatula » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:53 pm

ProfessorK wrote:Unfiorunately the rules make it difficult to use that. The Endoskeleton costs ALL your first perk cyber points so you are unlikely to buy it off the bat. However later its extremely difficult to raise your DEX much. So its really too expensive to take advantage of as an upgrade either.

I suppose you could put points into dex at build time in anticipation of dropping the external armor later...

Well, different strokes, but for me the high price of some cyber pieces makes it more likely that I'd get them with the 1st $10k perk instead of having to save up for 2 perks later on - that's at least 12 XP! And if I was making a combat character, especially a ranged one, I'd rather start with as high a Dex as I could manage, and then plan to increase my lower attributes with XP once play started. Depending on the character concept. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration, IMO.

For example, I was looking at the Tharkold Day One pregens recently as I plan to run that scenario when the box arrives, and I was initially puzzled why none of the soldiers had more than 8 Dex. For more than a few of them, I would have built them with more than that, as the scenario is mostly fighting and driving. But the characters were actually constructed so as to not waste any points, because they all have tactical armor (max Dex 8). The tac armor is really good (+4 armor), but 8 max Dex is a low ceiling in terms of accuracy, and it Fatigues. If I was making a Tharkold non-melee-type from scratch, I would definitely think about using a perk to get the endoskeleton (for a melee type I'd probably prefer the arm). It's one of the better pieces of armor available from the start, if not the best.

The Cyberpapacy implant armor is more skippable. It's not super expensive, and it's concealable, but +2 armor? Eh. It's nice for a character that doesn't want to be seen wearing actual armor, I suppose. And the lower price and lack of Strength requirement is useful.

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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby utsukushi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Spatula wrote:The Cyberpapacy implant armor is more skippable. It's not super expensive, and it's concealable, but +2 armor? Eh. It's nice for a character that doesn't want to be seen wearing actual armor, I suppose. And the lower price and lack of Strength requirement is useful.

Don't underestimate the importance of character aesthetics!

But more seriously (well...), it depends a lot on the game. If you have those quasi-social scenes where, like, the PCs have to attend a ball in Aysle or meet with a dignitary that nobody knows is evil yet in Orrorsh or anything-but-zombies in Pan-Pacifica... even most of the +2 armors are too obtrusive for scenes where you can't go in actually wearing armor. It's also worth pointing out that almost all +2-and-above armors are Fatiguing, and that does add up.

So I'd say it has its place... if there weren't that +2, unobtrusive, non-Fatiguing, no-Max-Dex, Tech24 IriMesh Clothing sitting there for only $250. The only advantage Body Plating really seems to have over that - unless you're in an Anime game and expecting lots of hot tubbing scenes - is the "Full Body", and I'm not the least bit convinced that's worth the price difference. Especially when you consider that that price difference is actually less in dollars and more in Perks.

Full Body is nice, but caught between IriMesh and the Zan Endoskeleton, yeah, Trigon Body Plate is totally skippable. Maybe at somewhere around $3,000 it would be more appealing. So I guess it doesn't depend after all.

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Spatula
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Re: Stacking internal and external armor

Postby Spatula » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Yeah, IriMesh is pretty awesome for characters who don't want a ton of armor or to be obvious about it.


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