Differentiating wizards of different realities

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:51 pm

TiaMaster wrote:If there are clear, developed rules for spellcasting in the LL book that make us go "AH, spellcasting is like THIS", then can we take those rules and extrapolate what it would be to cast in Aysle? (not in detail, but enough to expand on whats in the Corebook)


Do you mean some sort of spell design system? If that's what you mean, no that's not in the Living Land book and very likely won't be part of the Aysle book either. Spells, etc are much more qualitative on the effects than they were in Original Torg. I tried to make up a system, but after a few days of wrestling with it, decided it wasn't worth the time I was spending on it.

That said, Dominick has said he'll take a shot at it (I think) after it comes out.

What IS going to be in the Living Land is an example or two of how we're going to add more differences between religions and arcane traditions.

(Spoiler: They're Perks)
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TiaMaster
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:26 pm

Not talking spell design system.
You guys were talking about making spellcasting "different". You said, 'Wait ferr the LL book, you bungholez'.

Therefore I am wondering what sort of system we need to wait for, rather than using the Core book for casting rules. So then one must assume US will be going into more detail about the spell system in that LL sourcebook. So whatever those details are, I am wondering if we can use that information to build on for using in other cosms.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:19 pm

Ohhhhhhhhhhh...no, that's not what we meant. Spellcasting rules are going to be the same between cosms.

However, our goal is to make a spellcaster from Aysle feel different from one in the Nile Empire or the Cyberpapacy, or Tharkold, or Orrorsh...etc.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Rabbitball » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:25 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Do you mean some sort of spell design system? If that's what you mean, no that's not in the Living Land book and very likely won't be part of the Aysle book either. Spells, etc are much more qualitative on the effects than they were in Original Torg. I tried to make up a system, but after a few days of wrestling with it, decided it wasn't worth the time I was spending on it.

That said, Dominick has said he'll take a shot at it (I think) after it comes out.

What IS going to be in the Living Land is an example or two of how we're going to add more differences between religions and arcane traditions.


Well, since you opened the door, I will say that I am working on magic and while everything is "balanced" according to a variation of the above mentioned formula, there are times when numbers get tweaked for the sake of making the cool feasible with justifications such as "this is an Axiom 21 spell, so it gets a +6" or "Uthorion invented this and it requires Conjuration 18 so..."
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

Stormchild
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Stormchild » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:48 pm

What I am hoping for is:
A) a simple design system for SFX - what to do to create a Torg Value Number for an effect (the Masterbook system did this extremely good)
B) different systems of how to incorporate the SFX into the different setting - what a firemage has to do to learn and cast a fire based spell, what a necromant has to do to get a similar effect but with a totally different spell, how the same effect can be achieved with a gadget made by a weird scientist and so on.

An example: an SFX to look at a distant place
- the Firemage invents a spell called firescrying, he needs a source of flame, a contagion of the target he wants to see and has to speak the magic words
- the Necromant invents a spell called deathwatch, he needs part of a corpse that had lived on the site to be watched, a sacrificial animal and has to speak with the ghost of said corpse
- the Weird Scientist needs a possibility capacitor, a screen of some kind, some other electric and electronic stuff and has to put one poss into the televisor he builds

But all of these SFX have the same DN,the same range, the same rules whatsoever, they are only achieved with different skills and need different story elements.
I don't make things complicated. That's the way they get, all by themselves.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby TiaMaster » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:24 pm

I have a feeling it will be something similar, which is perfectly fine.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:08 pm

Stormchild wrote:What I am hoping for is:
A) a simple design system for SFX - what to do to create a Torg Value Number for an effect (the Masterbook system did this extremely good)
B) different systems of how to incorporate the SFX into the different setting - what a firemage has to do to learn and cast a fire based spell, what a necromant has to do to get a similar effect but with a totally different spell, how the same effect can be achieved with a gadget made by a weird scientist and so on.

An example: an SFX to look at a distant place
- the Firemage invents a spell called firescrying, he needs a source of flame, a contagion of the target he wants to see and has to speak the magic words
- the Necromant invents a spell called deathwatch, he needs part of a corpse that had lived on the site to be watched, a sacrificial animal and has to speak with the ghost of said corpse
- the Weird Scientist needs a possibility capacitor, a screen of some kind, some other electric and electronic stuff and has to put one poss into the televisor he builds

But all of these SFX have the same DN,the same range, the same rules whatsoever, they are only achieved with different skills and need different story elements.


No, I highly doubt we'll be doing something like you describe.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Stormchild » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Well, you can't have everything. Masterbook (and Bloodshadows) allows for a good conversion, I presume.
I don't make things complicated. That's the way they get, all by themselves.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby utsukushi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:38 pm

<lets out a breath of relief>

I'm sorry, Stormchild, but what you described to me read like everything I hate about D&D4. Everyone does the same things the same way, with different adjectives stapled on.

My biggest fear in TorgE is (still, if I'm being honest) that Magic, Miracles, and Psionics - and quite possibly Tech, Martial Arts, and anything else - will feel like that: cookie-cutter effects with a handful of keywords that are supposed to make them feel `different'. Having reluctantly accepted that oTorg was too complicated with its, "80% entirely new game for every world" approach, I'm still doubtful that they're going to be able to make Perks differentiate those things enough even from each other, let alone make a spellcaster from the Cyberpapacy feel terribly different from Aysle, or two different Aysle magicians feel very different from each other.

Some things they've said have made me hopeful, but I'm still worried, and I am reminding myself over and over that it's not fair to expect these differences to be clear in the core book. They really weren't in oTorg, either, and Dean has outright said these differences are important to them but won't really be felt until the Cosm books come out and... that's totally reasonable and I *will remember this* when I get the core rules and not freak out about it.

...OK, amended promise: I'll probably freak out about it, but I'll do it on my own time and calm down and remember that before I come back to the forum. Deal? Deal.

Anyway, yeah; if every Cosm turned out to do the same thing in the same way with different MacGuffins? "You say Abracadabra, you cry out to Lanala, and you push the third button on your arm. You produce a burst of flame, you produce a burst of light, and you produce a laser, all exactly 30 feet long. Everybody roll identical damage." Blah.

I would be most wroth. Which, um, doesn't mean much except that I won't see much point in buying different Cosm books when I can do that myself, so US wouldn't get as much of my money in the long run. That's about as scary as I get.

But what I really mean to say is... hearing that that is not the plan, I have hope that I'll be pleasantly surprised and they'll really come out to be different. That would be awesome.


<deep breath> Really, I think I do see more what you're looking for, Stormchild - like, a toolbox to build with? And if it has enough trappings, it can get away from that feeling that everyone's the same. Talislanta, once it hit 4th Edition and finally admitted that it needed a system and not just lots and lots of setting, actually did a pretty good job with that... But that takes a lot of trappings, and I think it helped that their 'core effects' were kept, overall, very vague and solidly Meta.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Stormchild » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:22 pm

So, between us two, they make at least one happy. But I am not sure if you understood what I was proposing. No problem, since they are not doing it anyway.

I don't want to have rules get too complicated but I'd love to have extremely different effects. If you can get your hand on it, just take a look at the Masterbook SFX system and the Bloodshadows magic system (based on that Masterbook system).

The Masterbook system (which is based on oTorg) is an easy-to-use rules system for creating any kind of SFX. If you want the damage effect to be higher you have to adjust the calculation, if you want the range to extent, adjust the calculation, balance it with disadvantages like contagion or incantation, so each SFX is unique. And then comes in the Bloodshadows magic system that uses SFX built with this Masterbook system but adjusted for different flair according to the magic discipline.

You do not have one fireball with one effect, one range, one casting time but different names, you have a unique fireball spell tailored for the SFX discipline you want and even adjusted by the caster as he pleases.

I used the SFX system in oTorg for magic on the fly and a new player who had never heard of Torg before was able to cast unique spells on the fly, each taking less than 5 minutes to calculate.
I don't make things complicated. That's the way they get, all by themselves.


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