Linear vs logarithmic strength

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Gargoyle
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Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:57 pm

Just an fyi, on page 69 it says to use 8x your Strength to determine what you can lift, or 12x for short periods. That's going to be very inaccurate, especially at higher Strength levels, or at least way weaker than if you use the charts. I've put in a correction suggestion on the form that they just reference the Values and Measures chart on page 272. There's even an example on that page of finding the DN for lifting using the charts.

So basically there are two systems in the book and you're weaker if you go with the version on page 69. I know it's intended to be a quick approximation, but it's very inaccurate for 12+ Strength and it isn't quicker than looking it up in the table IMO, especially if you do conversions to pounds etc. For pulp heroes or non-humans with 14+ Strength the difference between the two methods is huge. I'm going to use the tables.
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ProfessorK
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby ProfessorK » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:00 am

Yeah I just always use the chart for such things. Its pretty quick once you get used to it.

Ayaron
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Ayaron » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:48 am

(Note: Not read that far yet so this may be garbage)

Maybe it's that to lift the weight equal to your Str value you need to roll, because if you roll a negative modifier you fail.

So the numbers lifted in character creation are what you can easily carry without having to roll.

I suppose you could say a character can regularly carry their Str -6 or something similar. This would mean it's logarithmic and give encumbrance values for player equipment.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Ayaron wrote:(Note: Not read that far yet so this may be garbage)

Maybe it's that to lift the weight equal to your Str value you need to roll, because if you roll a negative modifier you fail.

So the numbers lifted in character creation are what you can easily carry without having to roll.


It says "a character can lift up to 8x Strength kilograms, or 12x Strength for a short period."

So maybe? Since that's a lower value than what you can lift with a roll, that's probably the case. In that case it still needs to reference page 272 and say as much...something like "if you need to lift more, you can make a Strength check and consult the values table" As it is, they just present a system on page 69 similar to what we see in other RPG's and don't mention Torg's tables on page 272.

IIRC oTorg had a Lifting skill and you could push your attributes, but it was a clunky system and I'm not interested in that.

I suppose you could say a character can regularly carry their Str -6 or something similar. This would mean it's logarithmic and give encumbrance values for player equipment.


It goes on to say "What a character can carry around is up to the GM, her gear, and the situation." and that's good enough for me, not really interested in encumbrance rules. The lifting part is what had me confused, but your suggestion seems to be the likely intention.
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Rocketeer
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Rocketeer » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:02 pm

This still needs some sort of official answer. However, the strength limits given on page 69 sure look like an error to me. The Value Chart was always the way to calculate such things, and the examples on page 274 of the Torg Eternity rulebook definitely seem to reinforce that.

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dev/null
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby dev/null » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:38 pm

The one difference between the example at the conversion chart over carry capacity primarily being that it is setting a DN for a roll, not covering what one can carry for long or short periods of time. It would be nice to have a clarification still, I'll agree, but that's the big difference I see between the two examples.

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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Rocketeer » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:19 am

The Linear vs Logarithmic issue isn’t limited to just Strength, both Running and the Pulp Power: Flight also use Linear calculations for speed. So, this issue effects more than just lifting.

As I recall, in the Original Torg, you would never run slower or lift less by Pushing an attribute. That is, a roll to Push had a minimum result of +1. However, Pushing also resulted in Shock damage. So, there was a reason not to use Pushing.

Since there are no Pushing rules in Torg:E, is this now just a straight roll on the Bonus Chart? In which case, a character could definitely run slower, lift less, etc., or do some truly amazing feats.

Also, how is the Value Chart to be used with a mixture of Linear and Logarithmic values? For example, consider two characters, one with a Dexterity of 6 and the other with a Dexterity of 8. Their respective running speeds would be 18 and 24 meters per turn (i.e. 3x Dexterity).

If we want to calculate how long it will take for the characters to run the length of a 2,000 meter runway, using just their base running speed (i.e. not rolling on the Bonus Chart), how is that done? Are base Dexterity Values (6 & 8) now used for the calculations, or are the linearly calculated speeds (18 & 24) converted to Values instead.

In the first case, we would have a distance Value of 16 and Dexterity Values of 6 and 8 respectively. The Dexterity 6 character would take (16 - 6 = 10, and convert Rounds to Minutes 10 - 4 = 6) about 15 minutes, and the Dexterity 8 character would take (16 - 8 = 8, 8 - 4 = 4) about 6 minutes. This looks reasonable, until we start getting into higher values for Dexterity; a character with an 11 Dexterity could run the 2,000 meters in 2 minutes. That’s why the original Torg rules included Limit Values for Running, etc.

However, if the running speeds are converted to Values, then both 18 & 24 meters per turn convert into a Value of 6. Therefore any calculations done using the Value Chart would yield the same result for both characters. Both characters would need (16 - 6 = 10, 10 - 4 = 6) 15 minutes. This just seems wrong to me.

So, even though the Value Chart is still a part of Torg, some of the rules that supported its use, such as Limit Values and Pushing, have been removed. This has left some noticeable gaps in the system. Also, the inclusion of linearly calculated values seems to be a gentle nudge away from using the Value Chart.

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Kamelion
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Kamelion » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:25 am

While I appreciate the convenience of deriving movement, lifting etc. by multiplying stats, I think the Value Chart should be used for this. Having all these elements plug into the same central system is part of what makes Torg special and GMing it such a pleasure.
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dehayhurst
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby dehayhurst » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:56 pm

Whoops! The intent was to have a quick rule of thumb for general lighter lifting without any kind of test, and then a Strength test with a DN (based on the value chart) for intense situations involving greater weights. I forgot to actually include the second part. There's room there, so this'll get clarified after the update.

There are definitely places where we wanted to go logarithmic but it just didn't work out in practice. Running movement was one of those latter ones.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Linear vs logarithmic strength

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:25 pm

dehayhurst wrote:Whoops! The intent was to have a quick rule of thumb for general lighter lifting without any kind of test, and then a Strength test with a DN (based on the value chart) for intense situations involving greater weights. I forgot to actually include the second part. There's room there, so this'll get clarified after the update.

There are definitely places where we wanted to go logarithmic but it just didn't work out in practice. Running movement was one of those latter ones.


Makes sense, thanks for the clarification!
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