Are multi-actions too cheap?

ProfessorK
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Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby ProfessorK » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:13 pm

ALL my players have gottne into the habit of multi-actioning in order to get the card and attack pretty much all the time.

It feels a bit too easy to me and dilutes the effect of chosing the approved action in mixing up combat

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Atama
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby Atama » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:11 pm

Well, being unskilled on one of those actions makes you roll as if unskilled overall, which can be a big limiter.

And -2 can be pretty rough, especially if you're not that great at the action.

The fighter who's not that bright and chooses to do a multi-action with trick and attack is just wasting his time, unlikely to succeed on the trick and won't get the card anyway. He might as well just attack without taking the penalties.

We found that sometimes you're better off not doing it, and that's how it should be.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

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TorgHacker
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:30 pm

Plus, those multi-actions can quickly nearly eliminate a Success Level.

At one point we had it as -2 per action rather than -2 per additional action, but then we found that nobody ever tried for them at all.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

ProfessorK
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby ProfessorK » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:39 am

Atama wrote:Well, being unskilled on one of those actions makes you roll as if unskilled overall, which can be a big limiter.

And -2 can be pretty rough, especially if you're not that great at the action.

The fighter who's not that bright and chooses to do a multi-action with trick and attack is just wasting his time, unlikely to succeed on the trick and won't get the card anyway. He might as well just attack without taking the penalties.

We found that sometimes you're better off not doing it, and that's how it should be.


I hadnt caught the "uskilled at any unskilled at all rule."

Ofcourse once my players knwo that they will probably throw one skill point into every interaction skill to avoid it...

My players seem not to care much about the -2. if they are on the line, they generally have poss polints or cards to burn to get over it.

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Rabbitball
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby Rabbitball » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:47 pm

ProfessorK wrote:My players seem not to care much about the -2. if they are on the line, they generally have poss polints or cards to burn to get over it.


If that -2 is the difference between a Standard and Good attack (or between Good and Outstanding), and it's pointed out as such, that may change...
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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jhosmer1
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby jhosmer1 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:12 pm

I would turn the equation around. It's not that multi-actions are too cheap, it's that the bad guys are too weak for what you want. Raise their defenses, especially for the dramatic scenes and the important bad guys. Also, remember that it works both ways. A pretty powerful NPC could do the same right back at the Storm Knights.

One of the big problems I'm having right now is gauging how tough to make my NPCs. There's not a lot of data to go by. I've had some luck with having mooks like Shocktroopers supporting the bigger bad guys. Some suppressive fire, or combined actions, can really ruin a PC's day. If a squad of mooks make a PC very vulnerable and then a Ravagon tears into him, they're going to remember that.

In the end, though, TORG is a cinematic, heroic game. I don't see a problem with quick fights and the PCs mowing down Shocktroopers by the handful.

utsukushi
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby utsukushi » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:22 pm

It doesn't really work both ways because bad guys don't get cards. So a villain can indeed pull both a Maneuver and a Fire Combat attack in the same round, but they don't get the added benefit of also adding a Coup de Grace to their hand which is really what makes it worth the penalty.

Otherwise, though, I agree completely; if it's too easy for the PCs to multi-action, boost some defenses. Especially some of the Interaction Defenses - if that -2 they're taking for also-attacking means that their minimally-supported Interaction Attack is likely to fail, they won't get the new card anyway. And if they're having to spend cards all the time to make those attacks, they're just breaking even, and not building up their Pool for a power attack later on.

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jhosmer1
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby jhosmer1 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:45 pm

utsukushi wrote:It doesn't really work both ways because bad guys don't get cards. So a villain can indeed pull both a Maneuver and a Fire Combat attack in the same round, but they don't get the added benefit of also adding a Coup de Grace to their hand which is really what makes it worth the penalty.


True, they don't get cards, but making a PC Very Vulnerable or getting "Player's Call" could still be valuable.

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Atama
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby Atama » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:08 pm

ProfessorK wrote:
Atama wrote:Well, being unskilled on one of those actions makes you roll as if unskilled overall, which can be a big limiter.

And -2 can be pretty rough, especially if you're not that great at the action.

The fighter who's not that bright and chooses to do a multi-action with trick and attack is just wasting his time, unlikely to succeed on the trick and won't get the card anyway. He might as well just attack without taking the penalties.

We found that sometimes you're better off not doing it, and that's how it should be.


I hadnt caught the "uskilled at any unskilled at all rule."

Ofcourse once my players knwo that they will probably throw one skill point into every interaction skill to avoid it...

My players seem not to care much about the -2. if they are on the line, they generally have poss polints or cards to burn to get over it.


Dean had mentioned that before. Also, don't forget you only roll once for a multi-action and apply the result to all your actions, you don't roll for each action. (We made that mistake our first time.) Also, being Favored doesn't apply to the roll unless every action is Favored, which is another limit on multi-action.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

ProfessorK
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Re: Are multi-actions too cheap?

Postby ProfessorK » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:38 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
ProfessorK wrote:My players seem not to care much about the -2. if they are on the line, they generally have poss polints or cards to burn to get over it.


If that -2 is the difference between a Standard and Good attack (or between Good and Outstanding), and it's pointed out as such, that may change...


No, because ikf 2 is the difference they almost always have a way by trading cards around of mkaing it.


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