Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Hawk Knight
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Hawk Knight » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:48 pm

As a cinematic game, I almost always favor players. Whatever result is in their favor in a questionable circumstance I tend to rule in their favor. The only exception is in climactic dramatic scenes I rule in favor of MORE DRAMA!

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Rabbitball
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Rabbitball » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:21 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Seize the Initiative can be played to flip a Drama card at the time it's flipped at the beginning of the round, even if it's saying Hero Confused. The effects on the card don't take effect yet.


Is this a deliberate change from OTorg, which ruled the other way in Infiniverse 18?
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
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TorgHacker
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:23 pm

Deliberately? No.

The reasoning is that a Surge, Setback, or Stymied wouldn't take place if the Seize the Initative card was played to flip the Drama card that had those pop up. Having Confused prevent it would be a weird exception.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Rabbitball
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Rabbitball » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:21 pm

It's a matter of timing. In OTorg, the card took effect as soon as it flipped, unless changed. But since the conflict line prevented cardplay, that would not work. The OTorg Law of Hope would still work, however, as it was a chance to use the effect of Seize Initiative without using a card.

Eternity in this case seems to be using a different model. The old rule would still allow a character with Bolster to negate the Confused result, which would then permit a Seize Initiative card to change the conflict line. But allowing a "Seize Initiative or other future Drama Card altering effect" window before the card really takes effect is a valid choice (although one that I feel may open up things that were better off left closed).

With regard to the other negatives that were removable by Seize Initiative, they were always so. Confused was always the only one that had the means to prevent the remedy. It's a matter of which exception is considered less exceptional: the one where "the very thing the card prohibits can be done by one specific card if it's done immediately" or the one where "the card you are trying to use doesn't work if this one result is on the card you are trying to use it on."
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering
Invertebrate punster—spinelessly unable to resist making a pun. "So slug me!"

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TorgHacker
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:41 am

By your reasoning though, why would Setback, Surges, and Stymied not take effect before the card was flipped by Seize the Initiative?

Either they happen after the opportunity to play Seize the Initiative or before. If they happen before, then even if the card is flipped by Seize the Initiative, you're still resolving a Setback, Stymied, or Surge condition. If they happen after, then Confused does as well, so it doesn't prevent Seize the Initative from being played.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Kamelion
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Kamelion » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:02 am

TorgHacker wrote:Having Confused prevent it would be a weird exception.

I figured that was the entire point of Confused - that it provided an exception to prevent card play in all cases.
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Gargoyle
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Gargoyle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:55 am

Kamelion wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Having Confused prevent it would be a weird exception.

I figured that was the entire point of Confused - that it provided an exception to prevent card play in all cases.


The whole point of Confused is to deny card play for a round to make things more challenging, and I feel it does that well enough without being unbeatable. Last weekend it really frustrated me. One thing I like about the game is that there is a lot of player agency in that you can avoid a lot of things that happen; but you've got to have the right card ready:

- Don't like taking damage and can't soak? Opponent Fails.
- Don't want to disconnect? Have a Second Chance ready or play a Reality Surge.
- Don't like the drama card flip? Should have put that Seize Initiative card in your pool last turn.

It encourages smart card play and is very rewarding to the player as they learn the game and play the cards optimally. And even when things go horribly, you can at least take some solace in the fact that if the cards came up differently you had a chance to win.

Also if you make Confused unbeatable by a Seize Initiative, then logically the other effects should be as well, and that's a bad idea because it can make DSR much harder. We played two SI's last weekend and just barely got A-D done without failing any checks.

Making it alone unbeatable by saying you can't Seize Initiative if it comes up is an option of course, and you should do what you want, but I don't understand why you'd want to make an exception for it as a GM. It just seems inconsistent and an unnecessary nerf to the players.
"That old chestnut?"

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Kamelion
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Kamelion » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:10 am

Gargoyle wrote:Also if you make Confused unbeatable by a Seize Initiative, then logically the other effects should be as well

Well, no - that was kinda my point - it's an exception. But I'm happy to play it as intended. I was just sharing my understanding of the rule prior to clarification :)
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Gargoyle
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Gargoyle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:10 am

Kamelion wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:Also if you make Confused unbeatable by a Seize Initiative, then logically the other effects should be as well

Well, no - that was kinda my point - it's an exception. But I'm happy to play it as intended. I was just sharing my understanding of the rule prior to clarification :)

Ah then, my apologies for going on and on about it. I may have been...Confused.
"That old chestnut?"

James Garr

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Kamelion
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Re: Seize Initiative and the Confused result

Postby Kamelion » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am

Gargoyle wrote:Ah then, my apologies for going on and on about it. I may have been...Confused.

No worries :). It's always nice to see someone seize the initiative in these discussions...
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