Hurting high-Reality targets

MAJT

Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby MAJT » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:10 pm

Actually, the fact they never showed up was what made me feel they were lousy villains in the original game.

An action game where the heroes never fight the main bad guys just felt weird.

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:36 pm

As others have already said it is not the end of the campaign if PCs off a High Lord. The real threat is the Darkness Devices. There will always be a new villain to face until and unless the PCs destroy/seal/brainwash all seven Darkness Devices and if you can manage that then that seems like a fantastic place to end a campaign anyway.

I don't see the point in an action movie game where you can never kill the Big Bad myself but it takes all kinds. It should be a big, end-of-season finale but it should absolutely be possible and it should be fun.

That is my main concern now, that it won't be fun to punch a villain with a high Reality skill. I feel that if the whole team coordinates to make the villain Vulnerable and have the PC with the biggest gun make the biggest roll and stack all the Coup de Grace cards on it and so on that should achieve something. A 95% chance of the villain just saying "lol no" and being totally unaffected seems unfun. They should take some damage and roar and yell "Inconceivable! How can mere worms like you be so goddamn awesome?". I'd rather they have no Soak at all and twenty times the Wounds and Shock than normal Wounds and Shock but a nineteen in twenty chance of no-selling every attack. That gets to the same mean time until the boss falls over without being so frustrating and random.

Possibly I would just rejig Soak so that it negates one Wound per five points over the target rather than capping out at total immunity on a twenty. Alternatively there could be advanced Core Earth perks that upgrade Negate to allow it to cancel or prevent Soak rolls and additional Possibilities from Darkness Devices, or allow a PC to start a Maelstrom on demand, or let them punch someone so hard they Disconnect and are temporarily squishy.

Hawk Knight
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Hawk Knight » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:45 pm

I can almost guarantee that there are possibility shards out there that prevent soaking.

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Rabbitball
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Rabbitball » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:45 pm

It just means the players need to be more creative:
  • Taunt the High Lord into not soaking an attack
  • Intimidate his minions away from him so as not to let him use Gloater
  • Toss the High Lord into a volcano (he will eventually run out of Possibilities to soak that damage)
  • Et cetera...
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

MAJT

Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby MAJT » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:55 am

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:As others have already said it is not the end of the campaign if PCs off a High Lord. The real threat is the Darkness Devices. There will always be a new villain to face until and unless the PCs destroy/seal/brainwash all seven Darkness Devices and if you can manage that then that seems like a fantastic place to end a campaign anyway.


I was giving serious consideration to running Torg Eternity as a straight sequel; the events of War's End all happened but 22 years later, in a world permanently changed by the Possibility Wars, Hekaton and co returned and chose new bearers (ideally antagonists who weren't Absent Landlords and who the Pcs could potentially actually fight).

They'd still have to take the One (well, seven!) Ring to Mount Doom, but killing the bad guys would now be possible.


ShirtlessOBrien wrote:I don't see the point in an action movie game where you can never kill the Big Bad myself


Torg Eternity gives the feel and the 'skin' of an action movie, but it feels like it lacks the payoff. Even in Pathfinder you can face off the Big Bads.

I guess we'll see when the adventures and the dreaded Metaplot start happening, but all the hints are that the PCs won't have as much impact as in the original game.

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:That is my main concern now, that it won't be fun to punch a villain with a high Reality skill.


This feels its intentional. It's a mechanical way of providing 'Plot Armour' for the bad guys. It saves them having to say 'no matter how much the PCs damage the bad guy, he's immune to it and always manages to escape'.

It works pretty well for the PCs, who need a very good roll and have a very limited supply of Possibilities anyway.

For NPCs with huge amounts of Possibilities and skills that give them an Outstanding success even on a Mishap, it's very easy to be immune to everything.

Hawk Knight wrote:I can almost guarantee that there are possibility shards out there that prevent soaking.


But wouldn't it be nice if, just for once, the PCs could be competent or badass without needing a deux ex machinae?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:32 pm

MAJT wrote:Actually, the fact they never showed up was what made me feel they were lousy villains in the original game.

An action game where the heroes never fight the main bad guys just felt weird.


You can count on there being some Storm Knight on High Lord action eventually.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:34 pm

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:As others have already said it is not the end of the campaign if PCs off a High Lord. The real threat is the Darkness Devices. There will always be a new villain to face until and unless the PCs destroy/seal/brainwash all seven Darkness Devices and if you can manage that then that seems like a fantastic place to end a campaign anyway.

I don't see the point in an action movie game where you can never kill the Big Bad myself but it takes all kinds. It should be a big, end-of-season finale but it should absolutely be possible and it should be fun.

That is my main concern now, that it won't be fun to punch a villain with a high Reality skill. I feel that if the whole team coordinates to make the villain Vulnerable and have the PC with the biggest gun make the biggest roll and stack all the Coup de Grace cards on it and so on that should achieve something. A 95% chance of the villain just saying "lol no" and being totally unaffected seems unfun. They should take some damage and roar and yell "Inconceivable! How can mere worms like you be so goddamn awesome?". I'd rather they have no Soak at all and twenty times the Wounds and Shock than normal Wounds and Shock but a nineteen in twenty chance of no-selling every attack. That gets to the same mean time until the boss falls over without being so frustrating and random.

Possibly I would just rejig Soak so that it negates one Wound per five points over the target rather than capping out at total immunity on a twenty. Alternatively there could be advanced Core Earth perks that upgrade Negate to allow it to cancel or prevent Soak rolls and additional Possibilities from Darkness Devices, or allow a PC to start a Maelstrom on demand, or let them punch someone so hard they Disconnect and are temporarily squishy.


Yeah, I think you can count on there being tools for Storm Knights to be able to deal with this stuff eventually. All you're seeing right now is the Alpha Clearance abilities.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:40 pm

MAJT wrote:
ShirtlessOBrien wrote:I don't see the point in an action movie game where you can never kill the Big Bad myself


Torg Eternity gives the feel and the 'skin' of an action movie, but it feels like it lacks the payoff. Even in Pathfinder you can face off the Big Bads.

I guess we'll see when the adventures and the dreaded Metaplot start happening, but all the hints are that the PCs won't have as much impact as in the original game.



I've said this before, so I want to be very clear. The PCs will have a major impact on the game and the story.

You have seen exactly one corebook and one group of adventures on the first day of the war. We have seen the mistakes of the past and are aware of them. So, maybe give us a little credit here that we know what we're doing? Please?
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

MAJT

Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby MAJT » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:08 pm

I hope so Dean. But all of your hints have suggested a very slow progression and a long wait before things really kick off.

We haven't seen any of the actual PC adventures yet. We've had the one-off GenCon one and the Day One things, all of which are training modules with random civilian NPCs in the early days of the conflict. All that feels like an intro, and we're waiting on the arrival of the actual heroes of the story.

Early on, the original game had Cassandra Files and Queenswrath, which were just small idea seeds that could be expanded upon. But we also had Before the Dawn, and the Relics of Power trilogy, all of which put the Pcs front and centre and allowed them to be seriously badass from the start. Stopping the Still World, summoning a new player in the Possibility Wars, optionally killing major antagonists like Wu Han and Mantooth? Even if the PCs were mostly superfluous by 1992 when the game essentially became an MMO, that was a pretty badass beginning by any standards.

I guess we'll see when the adventures - and the metaplot - kick in. I'm not expecting much of anything from the Delphi Council ones, so if they turn out to be more than 'fetching Quinn Sebastian's groceries from Tharkold' I'll be pleasantly surprised. :)
Last edited by MAJT on Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:03 pm

[deleted because I'm not in a good mood and not at my most diplomatic]
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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