Hurting high-Reality targets

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Kuildeous
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Kuildeous » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:12 am

Things have to go slowly, or we end up finishing the war before the sixth sourcebook comes out.

In oTorg, the war was pretty much a backdrop. There were zones moving in and out, but there had to be a state of perpetual war to keep the campaigns going. At some point, a campaign does have to end, and the GM should likely ramp that up at the right speed. Sadly my oTorg campaign petered out. I took to the perpetual war too literally and never did end the campaign in a proper way.

I'm going to talk with my group about our goal. Maybe I'll run this group for only 2 years and ramp it up to kicking the High Lords out. This will mean jury-rigging my own rules in some cases because not all the sourcebooks are out. Then we can start a new campaign after some of these new fancy books have come out. I don't know. I want to avoid the situation of running for 5 years and then fizzling out.

But that is a good point that we are technically pre-release. The core rulebook isn't even available to the public yet. It's really premature to talk about the end game right now.
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MAJT

Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby MAJT » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:35 am

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:My own vision, such as it is, is that TorgE should start off at around a Die Hard or Grosse Pointe Blank power level and work its way up through Commando to Captain America and beyond. But not right away.


That sounds fine, but beginning characters don't feel anywhere near Die Hard, the way they did in the original game.

They feel a few hundred XP off a decent 1st level character.

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:46 am

MAJT wrote:
ShirtlessOBrien wrote:My own vision, such as it is, is that TorgE should start off at around a Die Hard or Grosse Pointe Blank power level and work its way up through Commando to Captain America and beyond. But not right away.


That sounds fine, but beginning characters don't feel anywhere near Die Hard, the way they did in the original game.

They feel a few hundred XP off a decent 1st level character.


That surprises me but I'm still 100% theorycraft here so you may be right in practice.

Suppose John McClane is just the default Unstoppable Cop archetype, and they shoot a "terrorist" (I'll use Core Rules Soldier stats minus the armour) with their Glock. Without spending a Possibility and if the "terrorist" doesn't actively defend they will hit if they roll a 10 or higher, so 55% of the time, and do one Wound automatically, taking them out. If they spend a Possibility they take them out on anything other than a Mishap. That seems okay to me. If they roll at least a 10 and then spend a Possibility they can take out three in one round. (Lurks and first generation gospog go down even more easily.)

If he has a Uzi ("ho ho ho") and fires a short burst that improves the odds of taking one out to 60%. That seems okay.

If the "terrorist" returns fire with a Glock they hit the cop 60% of the time and do at least a Wound, but the cop can take three hits like that even without trying to Soak. I'm not hating that outcome either.

It's not like McClane made a habit of standing out in the open soaking gunfire from multiple attackers. He took the bad guys out one by one, or by indirect means like setting off a bomb.

I will say that there is a weird discontinuity in that if the Soldier had one more point of Strength the odds of dropping them in one attack fall of a cliff, down to one in five or one in six, because you need a Good success. That's a bit unintuitive so I plan to try to be aware that if the PCs are doing 13 damage, enemies with 9 Toughness are a lot tougher than ones with 8 Toughness. Also I think having 9 or 10 Toughness for PCs will be a very good investment since that will force most scrubby enemies to get a Good success in order to really hurt you.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Kuildeous » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:22 am

MAJT wrote:They feel a few hundred XP off a decent 1st level character.


I can't tell if you're being serious or speaking in hyperbole.

A few hundred XP is above and beyond. With just a little over 300 XP, I can make a character with +5 in three of his skills and +8 in a key skill, along with having 12 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 12 Spirit, and 8 Mind and Charisma. That is just insane.

I still don't know how you get that these characters don't feel heroic. I've run nearly two dozen game sessions, and characters are being heroic left and right. They're mowing down mooks, and they're teaming up against bad guys. Even tough bastards like the T-Rex and the technodemon. In all of those games, I only had two deaths. One was actually brought back through a Nile card before he could make his Death and Defeat roll (so I don't know if that really would have been a death). The other was by a dragon, which is definitely an unsurprising place for a death.

Maybe it's just what we bring to the game. As GM, I intend to bring out the heroics in the characters, and I play up those heroic moments. I suppose that if I determined ahead of time that the numbers suck, then I would have a hard time bringing out the heroics in the characters. The players would probably follow my lead and figure that they can't do cool stuff like disarming a Nile villain of an eternity shard and flinging it into the hands of the electric samurai. I just don't know.
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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Kuildeous wrote:
MAJT wrote:They feel a few hundred XP off a decent 1st level character.


I can't tell if you're being serious or speaking in hyperbole.

A few hundred XP is above and beyond. With just a little over 300 XP, I can make a character with +5 in three of his skills and +8 in a key skill, along with having 12 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 12 Spirit, and 8 Mind and Charisma. That is just insane.


I do not speak for them, but in most versions of D&D it takes 1250 to 2500xp to get to second level. So I suspect they were saying that TorgE PCs to them feel like just under D&D L1 power level, not that a TorgE PC with hundreds of XP is weak.

I still don't know how you get that these characters don't feel heroic. I've run nearly two dozen game sessions, and characters are being heroic left and right. They're mowing down mooks, and they're teaming up against bad guys. Even tough bastards like the T-Rex and the technodemon. In all of those games, I only had two deaths. One was actually brought back through a Nile card before he could make his Death and Defeat roll (so I don't know if that really would have been a death). The other was by a dragon, which is definitely an unsurprising place for a death.


This is why I value hearing different people's experiences. It might be different tables run the game in different ways, or some builds are more effective than others, or some groups are better at using Cosm/Destiny card mechanics or it might be random factors.

Savioronedge
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Savioronedge » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:55 pm

I am making a combat worthless chatacter, a walking medicine chest with no attacks or defenses but a 13 Spirit. I estimate that by 70 xp, this character will be a force to be reckoned with, using offensive spells and defensive miracles.

Note, this character is designed to be combat useless at start by back story. The 1st 5xp get Strong Willed so the 13 Spirit can keep me alive through the next act as my 5 Strength is a double whammy for death, but the Linguist perk is more important story wise. And Still , in under 50xp this character is strong and in 70xp is fairly epic.

Even including oTorg, I have not played a system which would allow this speed of improvement, taking an everyday person at lvl 0 to Warrior of Destiny in as little as 3 sessions.

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TiaMaster
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:43 pm

MAJT wrote:
ShirtlessOBrien wrote:My own vision, such as it is, is that TorgE should start off at around a Die Hard or Grosse Pointe Blank power level and work its way up through Commando to Captain America and beyond. But not right away.


That sounds fine, but beginning characters don't feel anywhere near Die Hard, the way they did in the original game.

They feel a few hundred XP off a decent 1st level character.


Okay, just....stop.

Stop, and then give me all your physical products when they come out.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Gargoyle » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:11 pm

If they've erred on the side of making newly created Storm Knights too weak, I think that's great. It's easy to buff them up, harder for the GM to nerf them. I'm very happy with the balance side of it, except for when you have a group that is too small or large, then I think the system needs some GM rulings right now to make it work properly.
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Re: Hurting high-Reality targets

Postby Atama » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:11 am

Gargoyle wrote:I'm very happy with the balance side of it, except for when you have a group that is too small or large, then I think the system needs some GM rulings right now to make it work properly.

To be fair, every RPG I've ever played needs adjustments to account for an especially small or large group. That's pretty much inevitable.
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