Favored Skills and Mishaps

Rocketeer
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:18 am

Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby Rocketeer » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:31 pm

The rule for Favored Skills states that the player may discard the result of the first die roll and roll again, unless the first roll is a Mishap. Does this apply to all Mishaps or just a Mishap roll of “1”?

To put it another way, is Favored similar to Possibility use on a Mishap, where Possibilities may still be spent on a Mishap other than a “1”, but the result will still include a Mishap even if successful? So, on a Mishap other than a “1”, the player would still get the second die roll granted by a Favored skill, but the result would still include a Mishap.

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4396
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:28 pm

It's any Mishap.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Ayaron
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby Ayaron » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:11 pm

Question, when, exactly, can the Mishap range be anything other than just 1? I know the rules under Mishaps say "Some situations might expand the range of Mishaps, such as 1–2 or even 1–4" but I can't recall actually reading anywhere in the rules where it is.

Under Rapid Fire it describes a Malfunction range, and specifically differentiates between a Malfunction and a Mishap:
"A Mishap roll of 1 when using Rapid Fire means the attack doesn’t happen and the weapon suffers a Malfunction (page 124). A Malfunction roll other than 1 means the weapon suffers a Malfunction after the attack (which may still succeed depending on skill, Possibilities, etc.)."

So can someone who is Favoured in Fire Combat re-roll a Malfunction and have the Malfunction not happen?

Second question, specifically to do with Favoured rolls. If the first roll isn't a Mishap and the player rolls again, can the second roll make it a Mishap? If they have to risk a simple miss turning into a Mishap (and possible disconnection) 5% of the time it reduces the appeal of Perks granting favoured skills.

Arcesilaus
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby Arcesilaus » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:09 pm

I'm eager to see the response to the first question.

In regard to the second, I've assumed that the scenario you imagine (the possibility of turning a miss into a Mishap) is the correct ruling according to RAW. That has, though, discouraged a lot of use of Favored skills, essentially causing players to only reroll 2s and 3s on the initial roll. When we first started playing, I described Favored as "like Advantage" in 5e D&D, so my players naturally started rolling 2d20 and using the higher result. This definitely seems more attractive (and is definitely more powerful) than the Favored rules, but is it game-breaking?

I'm not a huge fan of house rules, honestly, but I do want Favored to get a bit more play than it currently does. Of course, I don't want to set a precedent that makes 'Favored' Perks automatic buys. Any thoughts?
Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something. - The Dread Pirate Roberts

Ayaron
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby Ayaron » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:51 am

Arcesilaus wrote:I'm eager to see the response to the first question.

In regard to the second, I've assumed that the scenario you imagine (the possibility of turning a miss into a Mishap) is the correct ruling according to RAW. That has, though, discouraged a lot of use of Favored skills, essentially causing players to only reroll 2s and 3s on the initial roll. When we first started playing, I described Favored as "like Advantage" in 5e D&D, so my players naturally started rolling 2d20 and using the higher result. This definitely seems more attractive (and is definitely more powerful) than the Favored rules, but is it game-breaking?

I'm not a huge fan of house rules, honestly, but I do want Favored to get a bit more play than it currently does. Of course, I don't want to set a precedent that makes 'Favored' Perks automatic buys. Any thoughts?


My current houserule is as follows:

"The second roll cannot cause a mishap (if the first roll was a mishap then you are not allowed to reroll). But the second roll can cause disconnection, malfunction or be worse than the first roll."

I'm thinking of reducing it to just "But the second roll can be worse than the first roll". So it's only the first roll that can cause disconnection, mishap or malfunction. But then it is just a case of, did the first roll miss? Roll again with no consequences! Which seems overpowered compared to the RAW.

ZorValachan
Posts: 605
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:46 am

My thought is make sure the player understands the rule. That player will then decide if they want it or if they want another perk. Every perk is not for every player

Also some equipment make skills favored, so increasing Favored for perks will make some equipment even more powerful as well.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

utsukushi
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby utsukushi » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:08 am

Mishaps do say, "A Mishap is a natural roll of 1 on the first die roll when testing a skill or attribute total."

So my reading is that basically every time you do, you know, anything, there's this generally 5% chance of a Mishap, but that is all.

Admittedly, Favored is different than Up or a Possibility in that it replaces, rather than adding to, the die, but it's still not "the first die roll". So my understanding is that you can still end up with that roll of 1 giving you a -10, but it's not a Mishap, and I don't think that's even a house rule. As I read it, say you roll and get a 5, putting you at -4, which succeeds but you really want to do better. So you re-roll and get a 1. You've already established that this isn't a Mishap, so you are now at -10, but it's not a Mishap. In the technical sense, anyway.

...I don't really know if this second roll can cause Disconnection or not. The sections on Mishaps and Disconnection don't really reference each other, so they seem completely disconnected (haha) except for the fact that 90% of the time, Disconnection is the bad thing about rolling a Mishap, and they are, of course, completely identical, right up to the range being either a 1 or a 1-4, like "Mishaps" warned us some rule sections might do. My feeling is that Disconnection is a consequence of a Mishap, and that using a tool that exceeds All The Axioms is one of those situations that increases the risk of getting a Mishap, and the devs were just a little less pedantic about the terminology than we are.

So if you roll a 3 (in those circumstances), you have a Mishap causing Disconnection. According to the last paragraph under Mishaps, you can spend a Possibility and potentially do what you were trying to do before the lights go out, but you can't stop it happening. You can't re-roll Favor because Favored Skills says "and assuming it's not a Mishap", so you seem to lose that option on any Mishap, not just a natural 1. But since Favor can't get you out of a Mishap, it not being able to put you into one seems totally reasonable.

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4396
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:10 pm

Ayaron wrote:Question, when, exactly, can the Mishap range be anything other than just 1? I know the rules under Mishaps say "Some situations might expand the range of Mishaps, such as 1–2 or even 1–4" but I can't recall actually reading anywhere in the rules where it is.



Four Case contradictions for starters. It used to be that Malfunctions were actual Mishaps, so that was another one, but doesn't apply anymore.


Under Rapid Fire it describes a Malfunction range, and specifically differentiates between a Malfunction and a Mishap:
"A Mishap roll of 1 when using Rapid Fire means the attack doesn’t happen and the weapon suffers a Malfunction (page 124). A Malfunction roll other than 1 means the weapon suffers a Malfunction after the attack (which may still succeed depending on skill, Possibilities, etc.)."

So can someone who is Favoured in Fire Combat re-roll a Malfunction and have the Malfunction not happen?



Yes, unless the new roll is a Malfunction.


Second question, specifically to do with Favoured rolls. If the first roll isn't a Mishap and the player rolls again, can the second roll make it a Mishap? If they have to risk a simple miss turning into a Mishap (and possible disconnection) 5% of the time it reduces the appeal of Perks granting favoured skills.


Yes. You accept the new die roll in place of the old.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4396
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:14 pm

utsukushi wrote:
...I don't really know if this second roll can cause Disconnection or not. The sections on Mishaps and Disconnection don't really reference each other, so they seem completely disconnected (haha) except for the fact that 90% of the time, Disconnection is the bad thing about rolling a Mishap, and they are, of course, completely identical, right up to the range being either a 1 or a 1-4, like "Mishaps" warned us some rule sections might do. My feeling is that Disconnection is a consequence of a Mishap, and that using a tool that exceeds All The Axioms is one of those situations that increases the risk of getting a Mishap, and the devs were just a little less pedantic about the terminology than we are.



This is exactly correct. Up until verrrrrrrrrrrrry late in the development process, Malfunctions were simply Mishaps (which is why the wording is a bit problematic in that section).
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

mystic101
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Favored Skills and Mishaps

Postby mystic101 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:07 pm

One way to rationalize the fact that Favored skills have a greater chance of causing a Mishap, even though the user is supposed to be better than other people at the skill, is by looking at high-performance environments like Olympic level figure skating. They're the very best in the world at what they do, but they still make a lot of mistakes in their routines because they're pushing themselves to their absolute limits, in order to have the very best performance they can.

It would be similar for a Favored skill user. If someone doesn't want to take the risk of making a mistake, then they won't use it as much, and so won't get the slightly better results they'd otherwise get. On the other hand, if someone uses it a lot, it's because they're willing to "go for the gold" to get a better performance, occasional mistakes or not.


Return to “Rules Questions (TORG)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], graethynne and 9 guests