Telekinetic lift

Rogue1
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Telekinetic lift

Postby Rogue1 » Sun May 27, 2018 10:28 am

Something that came up last night that I have been wondering about with regards to telekinesis.

I am the GM for a team of storm knights that are nearing Beta clearance (I only mention this to be clear that these are not starting characters). One of our characters has gotten kenesis up fairly high and can consistently get at least a good success with activating telekinesis giving it a 50m range. They are then enhanced by the alteration mage to further increase their mind resulting in an effective telekinetic strength of 15 with some level of consistentency.

The question that came up is what stops this character from picking up an opponent (with a successful grapple check) and floating them to at or near the maximum range of their telekinesis (50m) and then dropping them for 40+1BD unavoidable damage? I couldn't identify a reason that they couldn't but it seems a bit overwhelmingly strong.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby TorgHacker » Sun May 27, 2018 11:09 am

Well, other than, "That's gonna suck" when you start doing it to the Storm Knights too... :twisted:

I'm asking Darrell what he thinks.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby ZorValachan » Sun May 27, 2018 11:21 am

TorgHacker wrote:Well, other than, "That's gonna suck" when you start doing it to the Storm Knights too... :twisted:

I'm asking Darrell what he thinks.

I've always called this the molotov cocktail rule. Whenever some player in fantasy game wants to stuff a rag into a whisky bottle and light it. As GM, i don't do it, but once they do it, it's fair game. Usually keeps stuff like this from going out of control.
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Gargoyle
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Gargoyle » Sun May 27, 2018 11:38 am

Telekinesis is something our psi uses almost constantly. I'm a little annoyed by it. It's really too good IMO due to the very low DN and "oh btw you can also use this to fly" part. Thankfully her strength isn't high but they recently figured out they can enhance that with destiny cards and do some even more interesting stuff, only a matter of time before they figure this one out. Regarding grappling, I think you should probably be able to do it though, I don't see why not, or just drop them into lava or over a cliff or whatever. And the "molotov cocktail" approach is cool and all, but use it on the telekinetic and they are probably already flying anyway. :(
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Padre » Sun May 27, 2018 12:31 pm

Gargoyle wrote:Telekinesis is something our psi uses almost constantly. I'm a little annoyed by it. It's really too good IMO due to the very low DN and "oh btw you can also use this to fly" part. Thankfully her strength isn't high but they recently figured out they can enhance that with destiny cards and do some even more interesting stuff, only a matter of time before they figure this one out. Regarding grappling, I think you should probably be able to do it though, I don't see why not, or just drop them into lava or over a cliff or whatever. And the "molotov cocktail" approach is cool and all, but use it on the telekinetic and they are probably already flying anyway. :(

Instead of using it on the telekinetic, use it on the mage. Make the telekinetic spend her actions rescuing the mage while the rest of the bad guys focus on the rest of the party.

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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby TorgHacker » Sun May 27, 2018 12:36 pm

Just to give you a preview of what I'm suggesting to Darrell...

"Things" does not equal "people". It equals 'objects' that can't resist.

Reason being is that we don't specify what happens if you use this on a person (other than yourself to 'fly') which is a singular exception.

And we really should be specifying what happens if you use this on a person. (ie what attack vs. what defense, are they restrained, how fast can you move them, what can they do, if anything, to escape). Can you do damage?

At the very least, Social 23 specifies that you can only move objects 'slowly'.

I can't remember specifics about this power from development (it showed up a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time ago) but I'm 90% sure it wasn't intended to be an attack. When I was doing my review, I would have highlighted it if only because the required skill is low for that sort of thing (my philosophy is that an 'attack' spell/miracle/power is generally skill 12 or higher.

So I'm thinking we'll have two proper telekinetic attacks in one of the coming books, one that effectively would be a grapple, and another a slam.
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utsukushi
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby utsukushi » Sun May 27, 2018 1:48 pm

That seems very likely. Compare it to Mage Hands, which has a difficulty of "10 or the Target's Dodge or Dexterity". Telekinesis only has the TN of 8, suggesting that it's much more internalized - you activate the power within yourself, and then you can use it to move things, but it can't interact directly with other people.

So you can still use it kind of like Mage Hands to wield a sword at a distance, and will totally be able to hit people for a damage value of 19 with better range than most firearms, while still having their solid 12 or 13 basis for things like Find and Trick because they can still totally dumpstat Strength (especially if they get the Perk that lets them always test Defeat with Spirit, too, which they surely also have built up if they're using Kinesis - along with a good Reality Score for Soaking) So it's still fairly unbalanced compared to a lot of powers, but not, "Oh, look, you can kill The Gaunt Man by beating a DN of 8" unbalanced.


Mage Hands actually seems much more dangerous in that regard. It does spell out the ability to affect people directly, and its Strength-replacing Attribute is the same as its Casting Skill Attribute, which is also still Spirit allowing for the Defeat-workaround and solid Soaking ability, allowing for almost perfect focus. Admittedly, its range is a mere 25, so it can only cause 30 + 1DB damage, but a round or two of that will still do for most High Lords.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Gargoyle » Sun May 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Padre wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:Telekinesis is something our psi uses almost constantly. I'm a little annoyed by it. It's really too good IMO due to the very low DN and "oh btw you can also use this to fly" part. Thankfully her strength isn't high but they recently figured out they can enhance that with destiny cards and do some even more interesting stuff, only a matter of time before they figure this one out. Regarding grappling, I think you should probably be able to do it though, I don't see why not, or just drop them into lava or over a cliff or whatever. And the "molotov cocktail" approach is cool and all, but use it on the telekinetic and they are probably already flying anyway. :(

Instead of using it on the telekinetic, use it on the mage. Make the telekinetic spend her actions rescuing the mage while the rest of the bad guys focus on the rest of the party.


Makes the psi feel even more powerful though doesn't it?
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby TorgHacker » Sun May 27, 2018 2:16 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Well, other than, "That's gonna suck" when you start doing it to the Storm Knights too... :twisted:

I'm asking Darrell what he thinks.


And the suggestion I gave is in fact, what we're going with.

We want to keep it simple, and explaining what happens in this case isn't simple without adding a bunch of text.

So telekinesis only applies to non-living objects, not beings or threats. There'll be a power later that specifically deals with attacking creatures telekinetically.
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Fuzzy
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Fuzzy » Sun May 27, 2018 2:46 pm

May I suggest that 40 + BD damage from falling 50 Meters is just way too much damage?

That is more damage than a direct hit from a TOW missile, or from standing dead center when a kilogram of C-9 explodes. A LOT more.

Just by way of comparison, there ARE stories of people who have survived a fall from 50 meters up (not likely, but it HAS happened).

There are ZERO cases of people who have survived a direct hit from a TOW missile.

Sometimes, it's not the power that's broken, it's the rule. I know that game designers hate to issue errata, and with good reason, but the alternative is sometimes an increasingly precarious set of FAQs that pile up over time to work around a core rule that is just flawed.


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