Telekinetic lift

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TorgHacker
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby TorgHacker » Mon May 28, 2018 8:21 am

SichoPhiend wrote:
As for the portal... I think I would allow it as part of a "players call" maneuver or trick. Either as part of a multi action, or as flavor text of how they take the mook out of the fight, if they feel that blood thirsty.


Yup, I'd allow that as a Player's Call, at least for a minion.
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RamblingScribe
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby RamblingScribe » Mon May 28, 2018 9:11 am

While I am okay with a portal defeating a minion as part of an interaction attack on player's call, it would break my sense of verisimilitude to then not allow it to be used the same way to deal damage on a major villain.

On the other hand, I probably would allow them to shove someone through a portal that opened up next to a cliff or other nearby environmental hazard.

I'm starting to think that I might start letting people with psionics/spells/miracles use their power skill as direct interaction attacks without specifying what spell/power/miracle they are using, as long as the trappings fit their theme. With the regular backlash rules of course. I think that would resolve a lot of the angst over not enough spells and trying to make the spell description for the action. I might limit specific skills to specific interactions (apportation and kinesis can maneuver at range or trick, but not taunt or intimidate, or something like that).

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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby fougerec » Mon May 28, 2018 11:54 am

I haven't found TK to be much of a problem beyond the "flight" aspect.

Grappling someone? Use the grapple rules and mage hand rules. So Unarmed Combat (which the TK may not have) requiring at least a Good Result. Movement speed is TK Strength - Mass (average human is 9).

So the TK in my game with his Mind of 11 ends up with the following speeds.

Success - Speed 2 (3m/round)
Good Success - Speed 4 (6m/round)
Outstanding Success - Speed 6 (15m/round)

If you use the 25 or 50m range as a speed then yes, it can be quite nasty. If you apply the Value chart to figure out the speed then it's far, far more reasonable.

I haven't had EMP show up yet so no idea how I'd roll with it though I may allow it to do a small amount of damage (maybe base 10) to an electronic life form.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Kuildeous » Mon May 28, 2018 11:16 pm

RamblingScribe wrote:While I am okay with a portal defeating a minion as part of an interaction attack on player's call, it would break my sense of verisimilitude to then not allow it to be used the same way to deal damage on a major villain.


It'd be similar to the example of knocking a minion off of a rooftop while a major villain may spend his turn teetering on the edge to recover his balance. You push the villain toward the portal, but he stands his ground. Doing so does cost his action and leaves him very vulnerable. Everyone open fire.
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utsukushi
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby utsukushi » Tue May 29, 2018 3:14 am

But how do you teeter on the edge of being telekinetically lifted 45 meters straight up and then dropped? I think it's totally a matter of taste, but for me, I'm with Scribe on this. While I can see some things that some important NPCs might be able to do sometimes that would justify it not working as well against them, I can't see what would make most important NPCs immune to something like that if it is a thing that can be done.

But that is because I tend towards `realism' -- I mean, within context. I like my fantasy to be internally consistent. Cinematically, there is just all *kinds* of precedent for both heroes and villains demonstrating abilities that would so totally win the final battle in half a second, and inexplicably not using them when said final battle comes about. So, yeah, a matter of taste, and honestly, Torg Eternity is meant to be cinematic, not realistic, even within itself. I'm just one of those people who, sure, I come out of the theater saying, "That was awesome!" But two days later, I'm like, "Hey, waitaminute..."

So it would bug me. I just don't like the idea of hitting that point where the player says, "OK, I do the thing I've done fifty times before," and the GM says, "It won't work here." "Why not?" "Because this NPC has a name. That trick doesn't work on people whose names I know." It just doesn't follow.

That said, I would like to offer yet another plate of cookies in favor of the, "no weaponizing utility powers" rule. That is awesome and almost poetic in its beauty. Plus, you could fit it on a button. Three thumbs up!

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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby fougerec » Tue May 29, 2018 6:47 am

utsukushi wrote:But how do you teeter on the edge of being telekinetically lifted 45 meters straight up and then dropped? I think it's totally a matter of taste, but for me, I'm with Scribe on this.


If you apply the value chart to get the speed at which something is moved even a maxed out 12 Mind psychic can get a max speed of 7, about 25m per round. So two rounds of not doing anything but moving the target, 3 if you require the actual moving to take an action.

Round 1 - Grapple
Round 2 - Move 25m
Round 3 - Move 25m and then drop.

I'm fine with that but YMMV.

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Wotan
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Wotan » Tue May 29, 2018 10:39 am

My group's still on the Day 1s, but knowing my players I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone attempts shenanigans with TK or Portal.

With TK, for simplicity's sake, I'm tempted to say that it can't move restrained targets that are resisting at all; The power just doesn't give enough fine control, no matter how much raw force the TK user's Mind is able to exert.
So it's fine for grappling & Immobilising someone (the TK equivalent of sitting on the target,) or for moving a willing or unconscious target, but is trivially easy to twist, or wriggle, free from if a character doesn't want to be moved by it.*

I'll probably take a similar line with Portal too. In the sense of saying that unwilling targets can't be thrown, tripped, etc through it. So it's still fine to grapple someone through a portal, or for a waiting enemy to strike through a Portal they're anticipating, but shenanigans like throwing enemies through a Portal that ends 50m up, or in front of an oncoming train, aren't going to be viable.

Having said all that, I'd still be fine with either power (or powers in general) being used as descriptive fluff for neutralising non-significant enemies with a Player's Call Interaction Attack.

*If that's too simplistic, although we don't actually have any rules (that I can see) for moving conventionally grappled opponents. I'm thinking it would at least be an opposed Strength roll.
If these mechanics were applied to moving people with TK, it would at least give the target a chance to resist (& spend possibilities) before they're dropped for day-ruining amounts of Falling Damage. Without some kind of check or restriction, beyond saying that moving the grappled target takes an action, it would still be relatively easy for canny PCs to TK Grapple someone & get them to a height where they're looking at taking 30+ falling damage before the target even has a chance to break free.
Last edited by Wotan on Tue May 29, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mystic101
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby mystic101 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:44 am

When I was initially looking at character builds, one of the build ideas I had in mind was a character who used Portal and falling damage as a "hail mary" tactic against super-tough bosses. I say a hail mary desperate play, because it's hard, tricky, and dangerous to try, but doable. I ultimately didn't go with it, but I looked into it quite a bit for awhile.

First of all, there's no pushing someone through the portal. The spell description only allows for grappling and then pulling someone through. Not pushing. In fact, other than that one sentence, there are no rules in the entire book that let someone move an opponent, other than possibly a Player's Call. You can grapple them in place, or pull them in this one single instance, but no pushing, lifting, throwing, or anything else. At least not in the rules as written.

So that takes care of using TK to lift anything. It's not supported by the rules. If you wanted an in-game reason it wouldn't work, just say that living things are too "wiggly" to keep hold of, for this particular Kinesis power. They wriggle around and get loose, unlike an object. Even a willing ally will wiggle around some if they're doing anything to contribute to a fight. Maybe an unconscious ally could be carried, because they're not moving anymore. And that brings it back to being a utility effect, rather than for combat.

Anyway, back to Portal. You can create one end of the portal near a foe, and the other end 50m up, but since you can only pull someone through, then the caster themselves has to also be 50m up. That means:
1. Having a Fly spell already up and running.
2. Having already flown up to the right height beforehand, in order to try this.
3. Not getting shot out of the air on your way up, and getting your flight concentration broken.
4. Casting a difficult Portal spell, with a -2 from being part of a multi-action, and also while maintaining the flight (so it's Diff 14 +4 = 18).
5. Landing an unarmed or melee Grapple as the other part of the multi-action, at a -2 difficulty, against a presumably tough boss who's hard to hit.
6. Letting the enemy go once you've got them in the air with you, and then hoping they didn't Hold an action in reserve in order to grab onto you to prevent themselves from falling, and also hoping that they don't subsequently win initiative on the next card flip, as another way to try to grab onto you before they start to fall.

As you can see, it'd be major damage if pulled off, but it's so difficult and dangerous that I'd only try it if the stakes were high, and if there was no other choice.

Or if I had a Martyr card. With that, and the setup as described above, the scenario just rights itself. :)

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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby mystic101 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:49 am

Oops, meant "writes" itself.

P.S. Using TK and Portal like this is only on the players' radar in the first place because falling is the single most damaging thing in the game. I second the suggestion to reduce the upper limit of falling damage in order to bring it more in line with a TOW missile or a ground-zero C-4 explosion.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Telekinetic lift

Postby Kuildeous » Tue May 29, 2018 11:06 am

Heh, I thought that "rights" was an appropriate verb for what you're saying, but I get where you're coming from.

On top of that situation you describe, the caster probably is not going to be the greatest unarmed combatant if he's focusing on his spellcasting, so there's that strike. But certainly not impossible.

I actually am fine with a brutal falling damage, especially since Storm Knights have two ways to survive a massive fall. But it does make sense that falling damage should cap out at terminal velocity.
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