Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

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TorgHacker
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:12 am

Yes. :lol:

Like I say, if you Min/Max don’t complain when you get hit in the Mins over and over, ‘cause I know you’re going to hit with the Max that way. :twisted:
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JohnK
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby JohnK » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:57 pm

Hullo, TorgHacker,

TorgHacker wrote:Yes. :lol:

Like I say, if you Min/Max don’t complain when you get hit in the Mins over and over, ‘cause I know you’re going to hit with the Max that way. :twisted:


This is pretty much the same in any rpg that players attempt to min-max their characters in, at least for sensible GMs.

That said, I don't discourage players from min/max-ing their characters if that's what they want to do, but in my games, they know the weaknesses will be not so much exploited as used against them. :)
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Yup. I advocate letting them know ahead of time that incoming is...incoming.

The hard part though is those situations where one Min/Max-er dominates the rest of the group to the point that you have to design and run encounters specifically to deal with that character. I ran into this with a MinMaxed Barbarian in my 3e D&D days.
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pkitty
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby pkitty » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:33 pm

Fortunately, I don't think it's going to mess up most encounters to always include at least one enemy with (say) Taunt and Trick at 10+. In fact, most players can then show off how well they can resist those effects, until it comes around to the Min-Maxed player's turn and she's suddenly (Non-)Player's Called into flinging her Trademark Weapon over the NPC's head and off into the jungle for the rest of the fight. :)
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby Fuzzy » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:22 pm

The hard part though is those situations where one Min/Max-er dominates the rest of the group to the point that you have to design and run encounters specifically to deal with that character. I ran into this with a MinMaxed Barbarian in my 3e D&D days.


Yep, exactly... For example, go through the God Box adventure... there's fairly little that really challenges the second character above. So that puts the GM in an awkward position of artificially changing up scenarios just to make other players feel more relevant and/or go after the character with the design build. It's a level of GM intervention that feels decidedly inorganic, but can become necessary.

Take the second character, for example... A Nile Brute. It's pretty much the same as the Eidonos Brute (a basic archetype). Except, well, just better. Drop Brute and Outsider (not likely to test for defeat often), and add 4 points of melee, a better weapon (+4 damage), better armor, a decent tech axiom, a better social axiom, 2 points of strength, and ki powers - which are solid). Replace Brute with Force Field (which is pretty much just better). It's no more vulnerable than the Eodonos Brute would be (though it will have some power limitations). Yes, this won't be true in Pan Pacifica, but it creates a situation where months of game play are dominated by a single character.

This is one of my problems with the Nile Empire - with the exception of psionics and things like computer use/hacking, any build that works well elsewhere can be topped by a Nile Empire build. And while it's true that a GM can always tap a power limitation, the dynamic in the game becomes very binary... in most situations, the character dominates certain activities (like combat). But every once in a while, that team member is neutralized and the entire group is at risk of a TPK.

Having said that, we haven't really had this problem. We have a very experienced group of players, so they tend to specialize (by agreement before characters are selected), so they share the spotlight well. We did limit ourselves to one Nile hero just to avoid the insanity, however.

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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby Padre » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:00 am

Back to the original topic of conversation, I've been playing around with a min/max transformed human in the Living Land. Take a big club, declare it as your Trademark Weapon, for reroll ones on damage. Take Ferocity and have someone cast Bloodlust on you. When attack is the approved action, use an all out attack to invoke the Law of Savagery and use whatever possibilities you need to get an outstanding success. Play a Coup de Grace on your attack for 6BD on your damage. For when you really need to put the hurt on a single target...

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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:27 am

Padre wrote:Back to the original topic of conversation, I've been playing around with a min/max transformed human in the Living Land. Take a big club, declare it as your Trademark Weapon, for reroll ones on damage. Take Ferocity and have someone cast Bloodlust on you. When attack is the approved action, use an all out attack to invoke the Law of Savagery and use whatever possibilities you need to get an outstanding success. Play a Coup de Grace on your attack for 6BD on your damage. For when you really need to put the hurt on a single target...


In keeping with the spirit of the thread...in addition to Ferocious, Bloodlust miracle, and Law of Savagery, on the sixth round or later, play all four Coup De Grace in the deck for more damage, as they stack too, for up to +9BD, then Master Plan twice and play two more Coup De Grace for +11BD. And use a Living Land possiblity for a total of +12 BD. Average of +4.6 for each roll with Trademark weapon is +55 damage. Two handed stone club is +3, and a Strength of 13 for 71 damage (average!) with this particularly ridiculous, but not totally unrealistic, combo.
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby JohnK » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Hullo, TorgHacker,

TorgHacker wrote:Yup. I advocate letting them know ahead of time that incoming is...incoming.


Yep, I tend to work that way, too. My attitude is that the players might as well know when something bad is about to happen or the shite is about to hit the fan. (And then they all look over at the min/max-er with a priceless look.) Players *know* who's who in their gaming groups! :)

TorgHacker wrote:The hard part though is those situations where one Min/Max-er dominates the rest of the group to the point that you have to design and run encounters specifically to deal with that character. I ran into this with a MinMaxed Barbarian in my 3e D&D days.


Yeah, this can be a bugger to handle. My solution has been to have up to five of the attackers, depending on the min/max-er's abilities, to be in their "league" and the rest of the attackers to be in the other player characters' "league" and such. It works well, but can be a you-know-what to coordinate.

What's your solution?
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby JohnK » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:30 pm

Hullo, pkitty,

pkitty wrote:Fortunately, I don't think it's going to mess up most encounters to always include at least one enemy with (say) Taunt and Trick at 10+. In fact, most players can then show off how well they can resist those effects, until it comes around to the Min-Maxed player's turn and she's suddenly (Non-)Player's Called into flinging her Trademark Weapon over the NPC's head and off into the jungle for the rest of the fight. :)


:lol: I like that! :)
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Re: Most OP combos? (Unleash your inner power gamer!)

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:34 pm

JohnK wrote:What's your solution?


I'm not sure I can really say, because I've never really run into that problem since 3e.

For Torg Eternity, because interaction attacks exist, and two key off of two possible 'dump stats' for combat Min/Maxers, and the consequences of those can be significant, I think it's relatively self correcting, as long as you're willing to take the gloves off. Which can be difficult for some of us old folks GMs who are used to fudging things, especially at low level, because the rules really didn't account for the evolving way of play where people actually get attached to their character.
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