The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

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TorgHacker
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:05 pm

<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone. ;)
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:26 pm

TorgHacker wrote:<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone. ;)


Wow.

I really didn't expect it in the first place (a lot of people saw the 1970s hiyahs! as cheese in OT).
But once it was in the preview, i got a new player who that was his concept - mystical martial artist.

So if it's gone, is it gone for good or possibly see light in an official product? Trying to decide how to handle it as a house rule or a possible Infiniverse Exchange priduct.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:48 pm

I wonder if the various Pulp Powers would be balanced more if they came with a built in limitation, like you had to take a Limitation just to get the baseline Perk.

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby JohnK » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Hullo, TorgHacker,

TorgHacker wrote:"The Nile Empire is Better at Everything."

So this comment has come up multiple times in the last little bit.

I'm not sure I agree, but I'm willing to hear the arguments for...and against it. And that's the thing. For those who advocate that the statement above is true, I want to hear what you think the best argument is that it's false.


To be honest, I don't think that this is true. To borrow from the old version of the game's Infiniverse stuff, I'd say this is False (8). :)

When it comes down to it, the Nile Empire was always meant to be the combination of ancient Egyptian stuff, pulp adventure (with Pulp superheroes thrown into that part of the game), and weird science. Original TORG took the concept too far, but everything that I've heard about the new Nile Empire material indicates that you folks (and notably a certain Deanna) :) has got it right in terms of how this Nile Empire will feel. And that's a great thing, in my book.

For me, the key will be how the Nile Empire book and the writing in said book bring the atmospheric feel of the Cosm and Realm to the forefront. And I'm looking forward to discover that.

TorgHacker wrote:Because right now is the time to tweak Nile Empire things, if they need tweaking.


Agreed. :)

TorgHacker wrote:If it's a case of the Living Land not being 'good' enough, that requires a different solution.


Actually, in terms of the Living Land material, I would say that the book is rather great, and the Living Land is much better than the original was and has a much more defined and evocative feel to it. False (65). :)
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby JohnK » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:54 pm

Hullo, Kuildeous,

Kuildeous wrote:<...>
I felt that the perk for increased unarmed damage covers a lot of ground in Torg. It allows for the knock-off martial artists without requiring a huge expenditure for other elements. And if you want those things, then Pan Pacifica can fit the bill.

So I've never seen a "need" for ki perks to be in Nile Empire. I'm not opposed to them, but I could see an argument that the unarmed perk is good enough for a fisticuffs character. The Masked Crusader from the archetypes has he perk, and it fits fine for him.


I totally agree with you here. That Perk works fine for the fisticuffs approach of the Nile Empire in my opinion.

Kuildeous wrote:I've seen a little grumbling about Nile martial arts watering down what make Pan Pacifica special, but that grumble seems to have died down. Is this still a concern for anybody? I can certainly see that point of view, but I've not seen enough of the rules to truly form a strong opinion on it.


The grumbling on this subject may have died down, but I, for one, never liked Nile Empire martial arts in original TORG because of how they did...cheapen the martial arts of Nippon Tech (now Pan-Pacifica, of course). And I really hope that this doesn't happen with Torg Eternity. Heck, some of my favourite artwork in this version of the game has been some of the Pan-Pacifica martial arts scenes. :)
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby JohnK » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:55 pm

Hullo, fougerec,

fougerec wrote:I think the problem with that is that we have no information on Pan-Pacifica martial arts so there's nothing to compare it to. Maybe those Martial Arts are amazingly awesome enough to make the Nile ones a cool but not as cool power. I'd much rather not have Nile martial arts and then in the Pan-Pacifica book maybe a sidebar about including them in other cosms in some less cool way.


+1 agreement. Totally. :)
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby pkitty » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:58 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
pkitty wrote:
4. (Partial.) Right now, the upcoming perk that lets Nile sorcerers spend a Possibility to cast any spell is the most useful spellcasting perk in the game, period. That said, I do have faith in y'all to include Aysle stuff that makes that pale in comparison, but this does add to the "well I may as well just be from the Nile" feel.


FYI, that isn't what the ability is. They can cast any spell in the two lists that pulp sorcerers have access to, not "any spell".

FWIW, I meant that in the sense of "any spell they had access to." Sorry for not making that clear. In other words, I do understand what that perk does, and it is in that context that I say it is the most useful and potent spellcasting perk that currently exists in Torg, by a wide margin.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Fuzzy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:18 pm

Code: Select all

<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone.  ;)


Wow, that takes some chutzpah. And serious ability to critically review things without attachment, which is the mark of a real professional.

To the question:

Nile has great axioms. The pulp powers are all very solid and have no prerequisites. All the arguments have been made, I won't rehash (much), so here's a proposed acid test:

Every cosm should have at least one or two archetypes that Nile cannot emulate

Let's run through:

1) Core Earth - reality perks are awesome. No one else can get these till Gamma clearance (40 Acts!), and Core Earth can emulate your stuff at Beta clearance (10 Acts). Booyah!

2) Living land - some seriously potent miracles here, but, on the whole... yeah, I wish they were even scarier. (Though, resurrection is literally game changing... enter the Delphi Council with its resurrection team). The low tech/social is killer. BTW, poison is just about the scariest mechanic there is (it puts blind terror into the hearts of storm knights). I'm not really sure if there's much here that can't be emulated, though... I'd like to see blessed weapons/artifacts get a slight boost, or some seriously scary Savage perks. Since Nile does lots of other things better than Living Land, one would expect that in two areas - miracles and melee - Living Land characters should clearly stand out.

3) Pan Pacifica - with the elimination of Nile Martial Arts, we're back in safe territory. Combined with tech 24 gear (and psi, if desired), we have some really cool archetypes that can't be emulated. Block/Strike is unique. -4 armor piercing is unique. Combined with an electric katana (+4 / -1 armor), and a plexisteel shield, this could go toe to toe with any melee character. I'd like to see some Social perks that have a Social axiom prerequisite... like, "advanced squad tactics", which only high Social characters can get, which would add some game mechanics to the low social axioms of other areas.

4) Aysle - it's hard to see what an Aysle character can do that's better than Nile Sorcerers. While we can wait on this, the expectation on the board seems to be that whatever magic perks/abilities/stuff Nile gets gets, Ayslish mages will get more/better magic. Given the lower tech/social (vs. Nile), Aysle really is Magic. And honor/Light. And, so far, the Light perks are... well... underwhelming. So the risk is that Nile sets the standard for mages and Aylse needs to beat that standard (setting us up for power inflation).

5) Cyberpapacy - tech 26, and generally good axioms across the board. Even so, tech 26 cyberware still gets weaker as you get more since next perk = $5k and costs more XP, and you usually buy the best stuff first), though some of the tech 26 gear is pretty cool (and weapons are good). Nile doesn't get LAW rockets, or M203 grenades, or irimesh armor, or plexisteel shields, or laser sights... or cyberdecks.

6) Tharkold - see cyberpapacy, but Social/Psi instead of Spirit/Miracles. Would love to see some Pain perks.

7) Orrorsh - The medals hold their ground (Dragonslayer... +BD damage to large+ targets when attack approved). Bulletsmith compensates for lower tech weapons. You actually have good magic/spirit axioms. On a pure PowerGamer level, though, it's hard to see it having something that's decidedly better that Nile and can't be emulated (and improved upon). Now, Orrorsh has a charm all its own, but its characters could use a couple buffs - more Occult perks that offer characters REALLY tempting options (but keep the risk low enough that it seems so manageable...). Power should be tempting. Really tempting. Don't worry. You can handle it. Probably.

So, the risk... it may be the lack of pre-reqs on the powers, combined with the fact that Pulp Powers are generally better than other perks. Examples:

Let's have a melee/gun sniper, etc., really high dex... with the invisibility power (not yet printed). Invisibility is normally a skill level 14 ability, which requires a Mind of 11, 3 adds, and a perk (spellcasting, though you get 3 others). Normally, if you have a dex 12 character, you just can't do it (average of 7 across other attributes). So, a Nile Sniper could have Super Skill Fire Combat, Super Attribute Dex, for a fire combat of 20 to 24, AND invisibility... I do actually think there should be a Pulp Invisibility power, but...

Alternatively, Force Field... Compare it to Hard to Kill, which adds a wound. Hard to Kill is a good perk, but requires 2 other Prowess Perks, and adds only 1 wound. 1 wound has a penalty, and takes a while to heal (or a Miracle). Base Forcefield (no buffs, but also no real limitations) offers 3 wounds... that's like 15 ablative armor. Take some limitations, and it's 5.

There's also the ability to hit a very high skill level... Let's create a character called Stun Girl (aka, "Lockdown"), at 50 XP. Stun Girl has a Mind of 15, Spellcasting (focus on Alteration), 9 Adds in Alteration. Casts Enhance Attribute on herself (27 total skill level), and is favored. She also knows the Invisibility spell, and Stun. She may know other spells. She has a Force Field. (That's 4 perks). On an average roll, she can Stun in a medium blast, with outstanding on everything 17 or lower. Against any non-undead/machine/plant target, that's endless stun locks. She probably has a 7 dex and 3 adds in defenses, but Invisibility (Outstanding every time) gives attackers a -6 to hit, and she can still use a shield or other defense-additive power (like an ally's psionic defensive awareness power). Her effective defense is about 18, and EVEN IF she gets hit... well, it's going to take a few hits to get through her force field. Yeah, she's semi-vulnerable to taunt/intimidate (not trick), but you can't intimidate someone when you're stun locked. yes, the GM can have the party face undead or robots... but, this gets tiring, and creates very binary combats.

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:27 pm

Just a note on forcefield. Disconnection = no forcefield. Happened to our weird scientist last night on his first roll. He became super squishy and never did reconnect the entire fight. No electro ray, no super skill. The barbarian with +1 wound kept it because it was a prowess perk.
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http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Spatula » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:29 pm

pkitty wrote:FWIW, I meant that in the sense of "any spell they had access to." Sorry for not making that clear. In other words, I do understand what that perk does, and it is in that context that I say it is the most useful and potent spellcasting perk that currently exists in Torg, by a wide margin.

Yeah, it basically removes the need to choose between utility and combat spells when making your small number of spell selections. You just take the combat options (there's always gonna be combat) and spend a possibility for the situationally useful utility spells when needed. Why take open lock or dispel magic when you won't always be dealing with locked doors or enemy spells?

So it's definitely powerful in terms of providing a great deal of breadth to the caster. I dunno if it's better than, say, Magister by a "wide" margin, though. Or if we see something like Vehemence for spellcasters. There's very few spellcaster perks presently, so almost anything that's better than "1 less Shock on a spell fail" looks pretty amazing.


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