The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

fougerec
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:10 pm

The number of times our spellcaster has been down to 1 possibility (and holding on to it in case he needs to soak) indicate that for our group at least it wouldn't be unduly powerful, even if it replaces a couple of utility spells in his roster.

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Wotan
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Wotan » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:31 pm

TorgHacker wrote:<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone. ;)

*pouts sulkily*

Nah, mostly kidding. I only say "mostly" cause I'm now a little concerned that NE might get hit too hard by the nerf bat. To prevent the perception that it's stepping on other Realms' toes too much.
I'm really not that bothered by Pulp MA being cut, but I can't help wondering if once we have the PP book, and more MA Perk lines, NE having access to Ki Powers would seem like much less of a big deal than it does right now. Same goes for the Pulp Sorcerer's Supreme Perk probably looking less OMG awesome, once we have the Aysle book, & the wizard stuff it'll contain.

It can't be helped now I guess, but it might have worked out better if NE had been released further down the product line, maybe even last.
As it is, I can see it being really hard to do NE (& the breadth which Pulp Powers should encapsulate) justice in the long term, while not also creating the (short term) perception of it being OP compared to other realms. At least until their books are out too.
I have massive amounts of faith in you, Deanna, and the TorgE writers in general, to give us something really cool, but it does seem like a bit of a Gordian Knot.

I'm definitely not advocating that NE should be the most powerful realm at everything, but Pulp powers, by their nature, cover a wide range of capabilities, & I wouldn't want to see that "feel" nerfed too hard.
Making NE second best, even if it was second best at everything, doesn't feel like a satisfying answer IMO. That could encourage players with concepts which fit firmly into one of the other realms' strong points to go there & possibly leave NE mainly for those who want to min-max some kind of (OP?) mixture of Pulp, Magic and Miracles.

Personally, I'd far rather see NE characters have that wide range of Pulpy character concepts to choose from, and to be competitive with, or at least not completely overshadowed by, similar characters from other realms, but somehow limit each individual character's ability to reach into that big old bag of Pulp Powers too freely.
Some kind of limit on the number of Pulp Powers which can be purchased (based on clearance level?) might help to mitigate the problem even if it's not a perfect answer.

The only other suggestion which occurs, at the moment, is possibly to increase the disconnection range for Pulp Powers? To reflect their weirdness. I think the fact that they're contradictory outside NE is a big balancing factor anyway, & a range of 1-2 might well be too much, but I'd far rather have Epic Pulp Powers which are less reliable, than have them too watered down or restricted in scope. *shrug*
/pontification
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Gargoyle
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:01 pm

TorgHacker wrote:<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone. ;)


I think it's the right decision, but even if I didn't I would still applaud you all for having the guts to make it this late in the game and for listening.
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Arcesilaus
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Arcesilaus » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:22 pm

pkitty wrote:3. The most high-Axiom psionic ability in the game is Mind Control. So if you want a psi who specializes in Mind Control, you need to be from the mega-psi cosm of Tharkhold and a master of the right psi skill . . . or just be from the Nile, where Mind Control doesn't even have any prerequisites and anyone can learn it. It really makes me wonder how many other awesome "capstone" abilities from other cosms will be more easily learned and used by a Nile hero. It feels like this sets the precedent that anything another cosm can do, the Nile can do more easily.


This is my greatest concern.

fougerec wrote:I wonder if the various Pulp Powers would be balanced more if they came with a built in limitation, like you had to take a Limitation just to get the baseline Perk.


This is what I think is the best solution. It feels the most "pulp-y."

O
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Joshua
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Joshua » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:55 pm

The game I'm currently a player in the PC's are made up of 3 characters from the Nile empire, Pan Pacifica Ninja and my Orrorsh Monster Hunter. When I asked each of the Nile players why they all chose the Nile they each said "Because they have the coolest powers!"

I've come to realize that I don't like the Nile Empire because they are so good at everything. But at the same time I like not liking them. Our Mad Scientist inventor took Super Attribute to increase his mind, all he had to do was spend the xp. My Monster Hunter had to go forth and earn a medal, The Victoria Gloriana and then still spend the XP, in order to get the same thing for his dex. It was more difficult but I earned it. When they complained about why I got to start dramatic combats with an extra card in my hand, I got to look them in the eyes and say because I killed a Ravagon and was awarded the Carnifex Princep by Queen Victoria for my cunning in battle.

Having to achieve, perform acts of heroism and bravery in order to even have access to some of the cooler perks in my cosm causes them to mean more and that's Orrorsh! It's hard, you're going to have to fight for everything you get, and you have to earn it. That's what makes my cosm cool. The Cosms are not created equal characters from some cosms just have it easier, but I intimidated a Dragon. My character is already eligible for every Medal in the Core Book and hope that when the Orrorsh book eventually comes out that there will be more medals in there. Those are perks that mean something. I just wish that since you have to achieve goals, some not easy, in game that they were able to be purchased with a discounted cost lol. Perks get expensive quick for High XP games. We're a 95 xp characters now and I'm wishing that I had been wiser in my spending earlier on.

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TorgHacker
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 pm

Arcesilaus wrote:
fougerec wrote:I wonder if the various Pulp Powers would be balanced more if they came with a built in limitation, like you had to take a Limitation just to get the baseline Perk.


This is what I think is the best solution. It feels the most "pulp-y."

O


Interestingly, I think there was a point that we considered it...but there were just too many examples of pulp powers without Limitations.

To be honest, I think Limitations might actually be something more 'supers' than 'pulp' though I could be wrong there.
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TorgHacker
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:00 pm

Joshua wrote:My character is already eligible for every Medal in the Core Book and hope that when the Orrorsh book eventually comes out that there will be more medals in there. Those are perks that mean something. I just wish that since you have to achieve goals, some not easy, in game that they were able to be purchased with a discounted cost lol. Perks get expensive quick for High XP games. We're a 95 xp characters now and I'm wishing that I had been wiser in my spending earlier on.


I think you can take it as a solid guarantee that there will be more support for Medals and the like in Orrorsh. It's one of my favorite parts of that cosm.
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pkitty
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby pkitty » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:11 am

TorgHacker wrote:To be honest, I think Limitations might actually be something more 'supers' than 'pulp' though I could be wrong there.

Not really. In particular, the idea that the pulp powers have to come from gadgets instead of inborn ability is very appropriate to that genre. For example, I totally get the idea of a jetpack or "gravity belt" but I'm not sure I understand what's particularly "pulp" about someone with unmodified Fly -- that's just straight-up superhero stuff. Same with just about any of the abilities.

I may just house rule that all Pulp Powers come with the "requires gadget" limitation automatically. That would go a long way toward preserving the pulp feel while also keeping the Nile from feeling so OP.
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Wakshani
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Wakshani » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:23 am

The only two things that trip it up for me are Super Attribute and Super Skill.

Super Attribute is kind of mimicked by other cosms, but they tend to be a boost to a single thematic attribute, rather than anything. It's *close* to being okay, but it also feels just a bit more … +1 to anything vs +1 to a specific theme. Sticking a limitation pushes it to a bigger bonus than the other cosms can get … which isn't always bad, but is a bit tricky to balance.

And then we get to Super Skill, which no other cosm can touch. If you look at the assorted "power builds", quite a few are using Super Skill. Stick it on Melee and get the world's greatest swordsman. Stick it on Unarmed Combat and get the world's best martial artist. Stick it on Alteration Magic, etc etc etc.

The trouble is, of course, that there's not really a counterplay here. Giving other cosms some kind of +4 skill starts an arms race while taking it away from the Nile takes away a major aspect.

My gut instinct would be to have Super Skill *replace* a skill, rather than add to it. The basic power might be a +3, up to a +5 with a limitation, up to +8 with a major limit or two minor … and it just *replaces* the character's own skill. So, a Nile character could get to a skill level *faster* than another cosm, but not be *better* than them, if that makes sense. Some characters might dabble in their skill (When I have the Cloak of Shaodws, I'm a shadow in the night but, without it? I'm still sneaky...) while others might fully rely on it (Don't ask me to solve that puzzle now! Can't you see that I'm covered in Earthworms, my one weakness? GAH!)

This would leave Super Attribute as the outlier, but other cosms are sampling that platter, so it's at least comparable.

But that's me just spitballin' here. Obviously, the Nile's the *coolest* cosm, so I'm fine with it having one aspect that's better than anyone else. :D

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Atama » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:03 am

I know it has been mentioned already but just a reminder that Super Attribute lets you exceed racial maximums. Other perks that boost attributes don’t. If you made a Living Land human with Strength 13, the Savage Strength perk does nothing. When comparing perks keep this in mind.
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