Clarification on Surge?

ZorValachan
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby ZorValachan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:03 pm

I guess i have a different view.
If the CP character disconnects, he doesn't lose faith adds or anything. As has been pointed out before, TE has faith, not faith (Catholic). This is different than OT

So. Your storm knight with faith is ok if he doesn't have miracles. If he has catholic miracles, those are a contradiction. When disconnected, he cannot cause contradictions, thus cannot invoke those miracles. If he transforms, his contradictions go away. He loses the miracles perk and if he chooses it again, his one choice must be the cyberpapacy list. Religion doesnt change, but the ability to do miracles, a perk not a skill, does.

This is the less obvious importance of the world law Through attrition, it makes other religions not be able to perform miracles, thus showing the one true way is really the one true way (cause it actually works). I would further say that a CP character by this shouldn't start with non CP miracles, but if you have a cool back story and the GM approves, go with it. This is a CP specific thing, and would not apply to other realms. It makes the CP more "dangerous" to priests from other realities.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
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The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
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ZorValachan
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby ZorValachan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:04 pm

Count Thalim wrote:OK, misinterpretation on my side for the most part.

Looking at the notes it came about as one player had invoked a Reality Storm, per the perk.
Mishaps occurred and everyone got involved as the storm got out of control.

I think my main error is in misreading the part where it was a loss of a reality add OR transformation if no reality adds left.

Though the overall query still stands if the character does transform within the Cyberpapacy due to the One True Way contradiction issue.
It is just further down the chain that I had thought.


It has been changed to 1 reality add left as you cant be P-rated (a storm knight) if you have 0 adds.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

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TorgHacker
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:08 pm

Count Thalim wrote:OK, misinterpretation on my side for the most part.

Looking at the notes it came about as one player had invoked a Reality Storm, per the perk.
Mishaps occurred and everyone got involved as the storm got out of control.

I think my main error is in misreading the part where it was a loss of a reality add OR transformation if no reality adds left.

Though the overall query still stands if the character does transform within the Cyberpapacy due to the One True Way contradiction issue.
It is just further down the chain that I had thought.


GM's call.
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

utsukushi
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby utsukushi » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:47 pm

Looking at the One True Way, I think it's significant that other Faiths themselves aren't Contradictions; Invoking them "counts as" a Contradiction because of the Law.

So given that this thread was initially talking about Surge, and it's being confirmed that knowing spells, miracles, or psionics that are Contradictions will apply just like carrying contradictory gear does... I don't think that just being Catholic, even if you have Catholic Miracles, would trigger a roll in a Surge. Those religions do exist in the CyberPapacy, they're just... discouraged. (Brutally discouraged, yes, but it's for their own good.) That's why the question of a CP-native Catholic comes up in the first place; because it's a completely possible character.

I would say that, whether it be from a storm or because they invoked such a miracle and it was treated, per the Law, as a Contradiction, and a CP-native Catholic disconnects in the CP... well, as we've discussed, they definitely can be Disconnected, and yes, I think they should lose access to those "contradictory" Miracles while they are. They would also lose, I would think, the effects of any Cybernetics they might have, because that's also a Perk tied to the Realm that they've temporarily been kicked out of. They're Disconnected.

But if they end up rolling a 1 on a Reconnection check... given that who they were before is a completely allowable CP character, I would say they could definitely just slide back into themselves. Because at that point, it's not up to the World Law - it's up to the Everlaw, and as far as the Everlaw is concerned, they're cool. Honestly, I'd let the player decide, just like if someone Transformed in another realm and then went back to their first one and managed to Transform again... they don't necessarily become the same person they were before, but they could.

This is one of those World Laws that seems to have actually been created by the High Lord. I imagine Malreaux is working on it, over time, to actually, fully forbid other religions from functioning at all, but that's going to be an awfully hard standard to build. Right now, he's able to say they're... unwelcome. But not yet impossible.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:53 pm

This is basically correct. It's the _invocation_ of the miracles by members of other religions that's contradictory, not the knowledge of those miracles that counts as a Contradiction.

In other words, this is strictly an "active" Contradiction check, not a passive one, which is what Surge simulates.

Knowledge of miracles with Spirit Axioms higher than the Cyberpapacy counts though.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby ZorValachan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:44 pm

TorgHacker wrote:This is basically correct. It's the _invocation_ of the miracles by members of other religions that's contradictory, not the knowledge of those miracles that counts as a Contradiction.

In other words, this is strictly an "active" Contradiction check, not a passive one, which is what Surge simulates.

Knowledge of miracles with Spirit Axioms higher than the Cyberpapacy counts though.

What about the mention of cyberware?. I think it would work when disconnected in the CP, as it is not a contradiction in the CP.

Disconnection is basically, "cannot cause contradictions" if it's not a contradiction then it can be done right?
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

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TorgHacker
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:42 pm

Right.
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utsukushi
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Re: Clarification on Surge?

Postby utsukushi » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:24 pm

Yeah, on further reflection (and a bit of actual double-checking), I was wrong there. Particularly in noting that Cyberware actually isn't a starred Perk, which I'd been thinking it was. If you don't need direct support from the World Laws and it doesn't violate the local Axioms, as it clearly wouldn't, then I agree, that should stay.

That makes the Miracles kind of odd in that situation -- having them isn't a Contradiction, so you still would; but because of the One True Way, calling on them is, so while you're Disconnected, you couldn't. I think "crisis of faith" is probably exactly the right description for it - the character would probably feel suddenly distanced from God, whether because he abandoned them or because they failed him, and would suddenly know that if they called for aid, it wouldn't come.


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