Casting into melee

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Stewbacca
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Stewbacca » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:10 pm

Is there something like an accuracy perk planned to overcome the odd number becomes friendly fire?

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Atama
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 pm

vaminion wrote:If I ever run Torg and want to keep the penalty for firing into melee I'll probably steal a rule from Savage Worlds: if you roll a natural odd and you miss you hit someone else in melee at random. But I'll admit the immutable 50% chance to hit a random bystander really bothers me regardless of whether it's a power or a gun.

There’s a reason it wasn’t set up this way. The damage you do is directly related to your result. I assume you’d rule a “miss” that hits a random person is deemed a “standard” hit. So there’s no way to do a good or outstanding hit on a “bystander”, so you never roll BD on such a hit, and there’s no chance of your shot doing more than base damage. I know in my case, using your rules most ranged folks can feel free to shoot when my character is in melee because an accidental hit isn’t going to ever hurt him.

The rules are fine as written. They make you think twice about firing into melee because something bad might happen. If you eliminate that, you remove a huge part of combat planning because it’s always worth the risk, so who cares what target you shoot at or who goes first; your odds of hitting your ally are minuscule and even if you hit them it’s guaranteed to not hurt them much (if at all).
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Greymarch2000 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:44 pm

That's another use for Destiny cards that give +3, change an odd to an even

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Atama
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:12 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:That's another use for Destiny cards that give +3, change an odd to an even

That wouldn’t work, those Destiny cards don’t change the roll. They just add a bonus to the final result. So all an Adrenaline card would do (for example) is potentially up the damage result (maybe turning a Standard hit to a Good hit) but you’d still have an odd dice roll.

Spending a Possibilty or a Hero/Drama card that lets you add another die changes your roll, and has the potential to make an odd into an even, but it doesn’t guarantee it.
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utsukushi
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Atama explained it beautifully, but I did want to emphasize that in their place, I think the firing into melee rule is downright brilliant; simple, elegant, and effective. A lot of games have rules to make firing into melee a risk, but I've never seen one that does it so well... it usually is a very small chance, and generally very much based on your skill, so the kind of character who's going to do it rarely has any problem with it anyway. Eternity's rule on that really brings out the chaos of battle and I love that.

I just don't like it getting all uppity. :P

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TorgHacker
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:31 pm

This rule was intentionally put in here to give incentives to actually fight hand-to-hand rather than send one person in and have the rest of the heroes just shoot them.
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Savioronedge
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Savioronedge » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:53 pm

One correction to the language being used here: it's not "Roll an odd, hit your friend". It is "Roll an odd, hit a random combatant (which could still be your intended target)*

I am sure everyone in the discussion knows that, but I didn't see it conveyed that way in the discussion.

<Not a complaint>I feel that Eternity fairly completely nerfed Powers in favor of Tech. My OT mages started with 4 Spells minimum and learned more fairly quickly; my clerics likewise had or developed an array of miracles, and my triple threat was viable at creation becoming truly helpful after a few adventures. None of this is possible in Eternity. </not a complaint>

Though, I almost fear our Discord mage is going to figure out that anyone she doesn't kill with a fireball I can Heal later...

I see both sides, and more importantly that they are not on the same coin. Deanna has said the "into Melee rule" is to allow the melee fighters their chance to shine </paraphrasing>

Utsukushi is saying speliclionics are Long Term expensive compared to the tech stuff and should be different. </paraphrasing>

While I agree with both, I fear the former now carries more weight in game. </¢2>

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Kuildeous
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 pm

Savioronedge wrote:One correction to the language being used here: it's not "Roll an odd, hit your friend". It is "Roll an odd, hit a random combatant (which could still be your intended target)*


And that random target isn't necessarily going to be 50%. I've had that argument many times with D&D3 when I suggested that firing into a grapple between a huge enemy and a medium ally should only have a 10% chance to hit the ally since it's one square vs. nine. Some people insist that random must be 50%.

And I've done this finagling with my group a lot. Warrior is fighting an ogre? Okay, I give it about 3:1 in favor of hitting the ogre. Warrior is fighting 6 ninja? Each one has an equal chance of getting shot.

It's a workable rule. It's not perfect, but it's good enough to be used. There were a couple of things that bug me with it.

First off, spending a Possibility might not help. If you start with odd, then you stand a really good chance of following it up with an even roll when you spend a Possibility, resulting in yet another odd number. A 1 through 9 becomes a 10. Only an 11, 13, 15, 17, or 19 will turn your die roll even.

So it's a little awkward, but I'm fine with it. The real lesson here is to be mindful if you are lobbing high-energy projectiles in the vicinity of your friends.

The one rule that I truly dislike and had to, in good conscience, change was that by RAW taking the aim action can still result in you hitting your ally next round. I could not abide by a rule where a character sacrifices an action only to injure his buddy (with a +4 to the skill even). My house rule is that the Aim action nullifies your chance to hit an ally. My group is very happy with it, and I found it very satisfying.
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Atama
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:46 pm

If you have one ally in melee with 3 others, you only have a 12.5% chance of hitting the ally if you fire into melee and roll a success.

50% chance of getting an odd, and if you roll an odd there’s only a one in four chance of the random target being that ally. 1/4 of 50 is 12.5%.

Or put another way, there’s an 87.5% chance of hitting an enemy, or 62.5% chance of hitting your original target.

How cool is that? You can look at the situation and gauge the odds and decide if it’s worth it to you. I just really like how this rule was conceived.
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utsukushi
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 am

Interesting. Of course, for this aspect to cause that problem would require a team with one tank and then a whole team of mages, and I've never seen that -- firearms are a lot more common. I'm not sure having one person in the party able to use ranged abilities even after a melee character had engaged would ruin the game. But... I'm not sure. So I'm not sure it wouldn't, either. So I will cede to your greater expertise and actual playtesting. ;) Thank you for pointing out that angle on it - it does help.

Savioronedge wrote:Though, I almost fear our Discord mage is going to figure out that anyone she doesn't kill with a fireball I can Heal later...

I'll take that, too. :twisted: Though honestly, I swear it's pure coincidence that this thread happened to come up right now! I'd have felt this way about this even if I hadn't just started a mage, I just never even realized it was an issue before. I've realized I also had a kind of background assumption that the Aiming rules didn't apply to magic, which I'm now a lot less sure of. Really, there are several places in the rules that I'd thought made distinctions between terms like "firing" or "attacking" that I wonder if I'm reading too much in. Huh.

Kuildeous wrote:My house rule is that the Aim action nullifies your chance to hit an ally. My group is very happy with it, and I found it very satisfying.

I understand why it doesn't work like that, since ultimately this rule isn't supposed to be about your skill but just about.. chaos, and the impossibility of accounting for all of it. But I do like that and would probably use it if I'm ever GMing. Limiting your attacks to every-other-round is a huge deal when full combats are rarely expected to last more than five rounds.


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