Casting into melee

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Gargoyle
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:11 pm

fougerec wrote:Rather than putting the onus on the shooter, what if it was a perk for the melee guy.

Something like Mobile Combatant
Prereq - Dexterity 9+
The character is adapt at ducking and weaving in melee and does not count as a possible target for the firing into melee rules.

If you need to buff it a but maybe they also don't count as being engaged for potential AOE targets


That gives them an option, but another way to look at it is is that it also creates social pressure to get a perk that really doesn't allow them to do anything but avoid their buddy's careless shooting. "Sorry I shot you, but you should really have taken that perk..." Not saying this would happen at all tables, but there are convention games, etc. that I could see this sort of thing. I mean, besides it's not really a fun perk to take IMO even if everyone is good willed about this stuff.
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utsukushi
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:13 pm

Sunrunner wrote:Wow I am impressed with my ability to start stuff.

We are a hard group to set off. I can't even remember another time we've had a multi-page discussion about one or two sentences out of the rulebook.

fougerec wrote:Rather than putting the onus on the shooter, what if it was a perk for the melee guy.

But as Kuildeous has demonstrated really well, the onus is already so heavily on `the melee guy'. If I fire my M82 into your melee, I'm not the one who gets hurt - which means, ultimately, it's not my character concept that's getting pushback from the rules. If the shooter buys it, they're buying an ability that lets them do their thing even better; if the melee fighter buys it, they're buying a Perk that doesn't actually let them do anything new.

Basically, it shouldn't be on my Swordmaster to make your Sniper work.

utsukushi
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:17 pm

It also just occurred to me that that would counter the whole purpose of the Firing into Melee rules. Deanna said they exist mainly to stop groups from having one melee person to keep the enemies bottlenecked and let everyone else just build Ranged characters and shoot around them.

If the tank only has to buy one Perk to free up a whole team of Ranged characters to fire around them....that party plan becomes totally viable again. Indeed, the Perk becomes more valuable the more Ranged attackers you have behind you. If every Ranged character has to buy their own Perk to make that happen, that's a heavy opportunity cost - especially if it's actually step two on a Perk Tree, or Beta clearance.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:47 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
ryric wrote:You haven't seen friendly fire truly happen until your group plays a Glory card on a shot that hits an ally.


+1


I'm sure that's what someone wanted. :lol:
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:48 pm

utsukushi wrote:It also just occurred to me that that would counter the whole purpose of the Firing into Melee rules. Deanna said they exist mainly to stop groups from having one melee person to keep the enemies bottlenecked and let everyone else just build Ranged characters and shoot around them.

If the tank only has to buy one Perk to free up a whole team of Ranged characters to fire around them....that party plan becomes totally viable again. Indeed, the Perk becomes more valuable the more Ranged attackers you have behind you. If every Ranged character has to buy their own Perk to make that happen, that's a heavy opportunity cost - especially if it's actually step two on a Perk Tree, or Beta clearance.


BINGO.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Greymarch2000 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:15 pm

Also helps people build characters with maybe some more dimensions than just being a one-trick pony that only solves things by rolling firearms tests every round. If for whatever all of the enemies are in melee with a teammate perhaps some interaction attacks or other action would be better? Things that actually add choices into combats are positives in my opinion, this system is already fairly cinematic and it seems way too easy for every fight to turn into "well I multi-target the group and spend a possibility and oh look I killed them all. Again."

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Kuildeous
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:22 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:Also helps people build characters with maybe some more dimensions than just being a one-trick pony that only solves things by rolling firearms tests every round. If for whatever all of the enemies are in melee with a teammate perhaps some interaction attacks or other action would be better? Things that actually add choices into combats are positives in my opinion, this system is already fairly cinematic and it seems way too easy for every fight to turn into "well I multi-target the group and spend a possibility and oh look I killed them all. Again."


An excellent point. At the very least, you can use your naturally high Dexterity to make a maneuver attempt and dizzy the foe(s) so your melee buddy can clobber them.
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fougerec
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby fougerec » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:48 pm

Maybe something similar to Mobility in D&D? If you attack someone in melee you can move away without becoming Vulnerable?

Savioronedge
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Savioronedge » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:48 pm

fougerec wrote:Maybe something similar to Mobility in D&D? If you attack someone in melee you can move away without becoming Vulnerable?

Now that has some merit; like...

Strike and fade
Prerequisite: Dexterity 9+, Manuever at least 2 Adds ‡

This character's fighting style is "Fight and Flee". He is adept at engaging without being engaged.

While in melee a character with this Perk does not become Vulnerable if he disengages, nor does he trigger the Firing into Melee rule. He does still count as a potential target if randomization occurs, and opponents do still risk Vulnerable if they disengage from him

† I successfully talked myself out of calling it "Hit and Run"
‡ I am still considering Whirlwind as a prerequisite and/or a Max STR...heavy hitting tough guys don't usually take well to this fighting style.


This way, the "I don't risk you hitting me" is a nominally useless side effect of a useful Perk... useless because with no consequence for disengages you could just do that as needed.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:37 am

fougerec wrote:Maybe something similar to Mobility in D&D? If you attack someone in melee you can move away without becoming Vulnerable?


I do like that better.
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