Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Sunrunner
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Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Sunrunner » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:43 am

Forgive me if this has come up before but I cant find it.

What happens when you take the Miracles perk and get Ward Enemy and 2 other miracle choices and then takes the Gotak or Optant perks which also give the Ward enemy miracle? Is that miracle selection just wasted since you already know it or do you get to pick an alternative Miracle?

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Gargoyle
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:38 am

You also get Ward Enemy for free when gaining adds in the Faith skill. That's a bit redundant as it is a prerequisite for those perks, probably just something that was overlooked in the final draft, but it doesn't matter much, though I suppose technically you could have Faith in a non-good religion and not gain the miracle.

This snippet from the FAQ might help a little with this type of question. The specific question isn't about this, but it has more general advice and applies:

Q: Can you do [insert action here] with telekinesis?

A: It depends. Rules are permissive, not restrictive. They tell you what you can do, and how...and if there are restrictions on those things (or on other rules). They don't grant abilities they, or a related rule, doesn't provide. Telekinesis allows you to: lift things with your mind, using Mind instead of Strength, and a limited ability to fly. It clarifies you use your own skills to do things. That's it. So if you can do what you can normally do, just with those differences? Go to town, and probably use the same rules. If not, that's an ability a higher Axiom power could provide.


Applying the same logic of reading what those perks do, and just allowing that and nothing else, indicates that no, you don't get some sort of bonus for getting Ward Enemy from multiple sources, you only gain it once and not something else that isn't specified.
"That old chestnut?"

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Atama
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Atama » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:12 am

Since Ward Enemy is available without the perk I don’t even count it as a Miracle you’re granted. As far as I’m concerned, the Miracles perk only gives you two Miracles. That’s the trade-off for not having to worry about investing in multiple skills and attributes to cast any of them.

Same with Optant/Gotak; I don’t count Ward Enemy as a Miracle you’re given.
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Sunrunner
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Sunrunner » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:57 pm

I might go with that Atama except the Nile does not have this problem, granted the sample size is small but niles Hem-Netjer gives Prophecy and 2 miracles of choice, meaning a Nile miracle caster is rolling out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks...

Optant also gives Shape Plant, Ward Enemy and choice of 2 miracles so they are getting out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks, just ginda wondering why Gotaks get shorted a miracle.

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Spatula
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Spatula » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:37 pm

Sunrunner wrote:I might go with that Atama except the Nile does not have this problem, granted the sample size is small but niles Hem-Netjer gives Prophecy and 2 miracles of choice, meaning a Nile miracle caster is rolling out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks...

Optant also gives Shape Plant, Ward Enemy and choice of 2 miracles so they are getting out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks, just ginda wondering why Gotaks get shorted a miracle.

That's life as a gotak for you. "YOU handle the dead things, someone's gotta do it, right? But hey, we're gonna look down on you for it, okay? Oh, and by the way, enjoy your fewer miracles!"

Though to be fair, at home in the Living Land, gotaks have just as much access to shape plants as anyone else. Like ward enemy is everywhere, it's a "free" miracle in the LL. And it's a fairly marginal utility miracle besides.

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Atama
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:40 pm

Sunrunner wrote:I might go with that Atama except the Nile does not have this problem, granted the sample size is small but niles Hem-Netjer gives Prophecy and 2 miracles of choice, meaning a Nile miracle caster is rolling out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks...

Optant also gives Shape Plant, Ward Enemy and choice of 2 miracles so they are getting out the door with 6 miracles for 2 perks, just ginda wondering why Gotaks get shorted a miracle.

Again, ignore Ward Enemy. Anyone with Faith of 8 or better can cast it so you’re not getting it from the perk. That’s like advertising a special on breakfast cereal that they’re including a cardboard box.

Optant has the requirement of being an Edeinos which is pretty steep. I’m playing a human savage, and I want to be an Optant. So I need to get the Chosen of Lanala perk. But it requires a Spirit of 10 and I only have a 9. Since I don’t want to pay 20 XP to boost my Spirit I’m getting the Spirit of Takta Ker perk. But we’re not quite Beta clearance so I have to wait. Prerequisites can be a pain! There’s a reason why Optant gives more than the regular Miracles perk.

It does stink that Gotaks don’t get an extra Miracle like an Optant despite having the same prerequisites. I would have given them Sculpt Bone as well as 2 other Miracles.
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Sunrunner
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Sunrunner » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:11 pm

This is more wondering if was just overlooked that its got over lapping miracles when all the other currently published special religion faith perks dont have this problem. From a game balance point of view its kinda an issue as you might say its just one miracle, but I will point out that one miracle costs the Gotak a full extra perk just to gain parity with the other faiths in miracle count and I consider a full perk to be a big deal.

Sculpt Bone would work for the Rec Stalek Gotaks, its kinda implied by not being on the list for Ketta Kales gotaks that its not for them. I guess this is where you can just say talk it out with your GM as they do say the spell list are examples of the most common miracles for a faith.

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Atama
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:56 pm

Sunrunner wrote:Sculpt Bone would work for the Rec Stalek Gotaks, its kinda implied by not being on the list for Ketta Kales gotaks that its not for them. I guess this is where you can just say talk it out with your GM as they do say the spell list are examples of the most common miracles for a faith.

Honestly that’s the best way to go. The Miracle lists are examples, not exclusive. If something different fits your campaign I’m sure US would encourage changing a list or coming up with your own. And giving a different Miracle for a perk to make it more fair seems like it won’t cause a problem if the GM and other players are cool with it.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

Savioronedge
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Savioronedge » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:58 pm

Wasn't there a discussion during the preview about this exact issue? I seem to recall the wording saying that if you had the "free" miracle as part of a different perk you got a replacement miracle.

Sunrunner
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Re: Overlapping miracles, what happens.

Postby Sunrunner » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:50 am

There might have been, but I was unable to find it with forum searches. I kinda thought I vaguely remembered it and was hoping I could get some confirmation.


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