The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

mrroderick
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The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby mrroderick » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:46 am

While doing some routine prep for my home game (I like to re-read rules sections once I am done writing to make sure everything makes sense), I came across the following in the Beta Clearance Primer, "This wouldn’t work if it was done as part of a Multi-Action, as the effects take place simultaneously" (pg 6, Targeting, 3rd paragraph). This sentence seems to imply that a PC cannot multi-attack to Maneuver and attack in the same turn AND ALSO gain the benefit of putting a Vulnerable or Very Vulnerable condition on the attack as the outcomes of the multi-action happen at the same time.

I cannot find the above implication explicitly stated in the multi-action rules on page 124 of the Core Rulebook. In fact, those rules say, "Generate a single bonus for all the actions, apply the penalty and any other modifiers, then resolve each in whatever order she chooses (or makes sense)."

I don't think this is a corner case (my table loves to multi-action), and I my poor Boolean-fu has not turned up an answer to this issue.

So, put simply, if a PC/NPC maneuvers and attacks as part of the same multi-action, does the attack gain the benefit of any Vulnerable/Very Vulnerable that the Maneuver creates?

While I am open to all comments, I'd really love an official answer or someone to direct me to the rules.

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TorgHacker
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:11 pm

You actually state the reason right there:

"Generate a single bonus for all the actions, apply the penalty and any other modifiers, then resolve each in whatever order she chooses (or makes sense)."

You apply *all* modifiers first. Then resolve. So don't get to retroactively apply modifiers later.

Put explicitly:

1. Generate the bonus.
2. Apply -2 penalty for Multi-Action.
3. Apply any other modifiers.
4. Resolve:
4a. Resolve the Interaction attack. Target becomes Vulnerable.
4b. Resolve the attack.

All of the modifiers are applied in step 3. Target doesn't become Vulnerable until Step 4a.

To do otherwise would incentivize always doing a Multi-Action when attacking, since half of the Multi-Action might not effectively have any penalty to it, and might even get effectively a bonus, and also dis-incentivizes team-work.

Also, here's the link to the FAQ if you weren't aware:

https://www.ulisses-us.com/TorgEternity ... ?title=FAQ
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Staffan
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby Staffan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm assuming this applies to the whole attack, not just the attack roll?

For example, let's say the Black Knight is fighting some lurkers. The Black Knight is from Aysle, and has the Critical Strike perk. Can he use Intimidate to make a lurker Vulnerable, and then declare his attack a Critical Strike and play a Coup de Grace card from his hand? I'm assuming the answer is "no".

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Kuildeous
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby Kuildeous » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:43 pm

Well, looking at Deanna's order of operations, I feel like the Black Knight can benefit from Critical Strike. He wouldn't get the +2 or +4 for making the target vulnerable, but if you apply the effects in whichever order, then you could make the foe Vulnerable and then trigger it on an attack. This looks to be the edge case where it would benefit you to intimidate and attack in the same round.

And the benefit is limited to however many Destiny cards he has, so it's not terribly abusive. Basically buy two perks and take a hit on your Charisma in order to take a -2 to your attack to play a Destiny card from your hand. Sounds like a decent trade-off.
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utsukushi
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby utsukushi » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:49 pm

I'd have to disagree... Critical Strike requires you to be making an attack against a Vulnerable foe; I think they have to already be Vulnerable when you make the Attack. Otherwise, let's say the Black Knight makes his multi-Action and gets a Standard Success on Intimidate. He can now say the target is Vulnerable, so he plays Hero and Drama straight out of his hand. He now has an Oustanding Success on his Intimidate, because those affect the whole action, but of course, he couldn't have done that if the lurker wasn't already made Vulnerable...

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Kuildeous
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby Kuildeous » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:15 pm

Hmm, yes, that would cause some weird timing issues.

I suppose I could see an argument for allowing cards that don't modify the die roll, such as Coup de Grace or Adrenaline, but it would just be easier to say you can't use it at all on that turn.

And as Deanna pointed out, it emphasizes teamwork.
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby Atama » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:21 am

This is why it’s awesome that initiative is determined by side, not by character. You get to pick who goes in which order when it’s your side’s turn. So each round on our turn we ask who is doing an interaction attack or a debuff (like a Stun spell or Confusion psi attack), and those guys go first, to soften up the enemies. Then ask who is doing ranged attacks so they can fire without risking melee allies. Finally the melee guys go last. With teamwork you can support each other and not get in each others’ way.

Interaction attacks are done to help your team not yourself. It gives a great dynamic to the game and isn’t just about each person independently taking down threats. And anyone can do them at will.
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QuarrelBlue
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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby QuarrelBlue » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:36 am

You need some peculiar initiative(You First right after Enemy First, or some extra turn like Flurry cardplay) to take advantage of Interaction Attack effect Enemy Vulnerable at One-on-One combat, right?
(Of course you can make enemy Stymied, but spending an entire Action just to make enemy's next attack merely less likely to hit doesn't sound useful, unless you still have fair chance to hit with multi-action attack or you seriously need an Approved Action sucess)

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Re: The benefits of interaction attacks during multi-action

Postby Blightcrawler » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:25 pm

QuarrelBlue wrote:You need some peculiar initiative(You First right after Enemy First, or some extra turn like Flurry cardplay) to take advantage of Interaction Attack effect Enemy Vulnerable at One-on-One combat, right?


Right. In a one-on-one fight, or even a team fight wide-spread/compartmentalized enough to effectively split the party on a given round, Vulnerable conditions becomes a gamble. You'd want a Flurry or Seize Initiative to ensure you can even take advantage of it.

Stymied is still a good option as a part of a multi-action, or perhaps even on its own. The best tactic might be "try not to get hit", maybe because the other players need time for a DSR or to race across the battlefield to reach me, or I'm hopelessly outmatched. To get an equivalent +2 with Full Defense requires a 15+ roll. If my interaction skill is evenly matched with my opponent, I only need an 11+ (or the same 15+ if multi-action plus the attack!). By even attempting an Interaction Attack, I also have the chance of a Player's Call which might be enough to end the fight on its own.

Even if the one-on-one fight is some arbitrated fight-to-the-death, keeping my opponent Stymied improves my odds more than it hurts them in many cases. I will usually have enough resources to make up for a -2 multi-action, in the rare cases where -2 makes or breaks a success.


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