Stacking Clarification

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Kuildeous
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Kuildeous » Fri May 24, 2019 1:18 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:
To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that


This is highly a matter of taste, so I can't say that you're wrong if you do feel that you can make a character that wants for nothing at the 60-80 XP range. I don't think that your assessment is typical though.

My group did just hit the 85 XP mark. They don't feel like endgame characters. They are pretty competent, and my elf player is thrilled with being able to buy Reality to 19, but even he's not yet done. There are still routes for the characters to explore. And as each sourcebook comes out, they're going to explore even more.

Now characters do advance fairly quickly. I can't deny that. When I started my campaign, I gave only 2-3 XP per session to slow them down. Mostly I did this so that I wouldn't run out of missions for them. Joke's on me; about half the XP they have is due to my home-brew adventures, so there are still published missions I haven't even touched. When they hit beta, I bumped up XP to the standard 5.

In such a wildly diverse game such as Torg, there will be some finagling the GM has to do to keep the challenges interesting without overwhelming them. I want to be able to challenge the Storm Knight with the 17 defense while not utterly annihilating the Storm Knight with the 9 defense. Part of that is doing more than just combat to challenge them. And not being afraid to "lose" as the GM. As long as the players are still engaged, I don't know if they plow through the encounters. That just makes a difficult one much more memorable.

Can I buy all the perks I want for 60-80 XP? Probably. Will it really be everything I really want? I have my doubts.
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vaminion
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby vaminion » Fri May 24, 2019 1:24 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Sir Awesome wrote:Next question,

How does this work with Drama Cards?


You mean Destiny Cards? This doesn't affect them. They're an exception.


But what about the other weird bonuses like Aiming and Vulnerable? I assume the intent is for those to add no matter what, but I can see a GM making the argument that the Aim action adds to your Ranged Weapons check, and therefore it doesn't stack with the bonus granted by a +2 longbow or with Vulnerable.

Yes, my help desk experience is showing. Deal with it.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 1:31 pm

vaminion wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
Sir Awesome wrote:Next question,

How does this work with Drama Cards?


You mean Destiny Cards? This doesn't affect them. They're an exception.


But what about the other weird bonuses like Aiming and Vulnerable? I assume the intent is for those to add no matter what, but I can see a GM making the argument that the Aim action adds to your Ranged Weapons check, and therefore it doesn't stack with the bonus granted by a +2 longbow or with Vulnerable.

Yes, my help desk experience is showing. Deal with it.


Yup, like I said upthread, there's some weirdness we're going to have to address.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby ZorValachan » Fri May 24, 2019 1:40 pm

Until official rulings come out, i just look at what it says.
Adrenaline can add to dexterity. If something else adds to dexterity, the higher us used.
If something adds to Missile weapons, it would stack with that adrenaline. Just like bonuses to Toughness and strength can stack with each other. But not stack with things that add to missile weapons.
Missile weapons is dexterity based, but Aim adds to the next ranged attack, not directly to dexterity or missile weapons. So it would stack with both dexterity and missile weapon bonuses, but not general ranged bonuses.
Size would be a different category as it applies to any attack.
Super skill/attribute officially just raise the stat. So apply everywhere (my house rule it is a bonus, so it counts as either a skill or attribute bonus and doesn't stack with those, a byproduct of "XP balance", disconnection shenanigans, etc.)
And so on...
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vaminion
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby vaminion » Fri May 24, 2019 1:46 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Yup, like I said upthread, there's some weirdness we're going to have to address.


Add Copycat to that list, because that's another one a GM could claim obeys or ignores the stacking rules with regards to other bonuses depending on how it's interpreted.

Also TK/Mage Hands' bonus on a good/outstanding result. If I give the wizard +1 Spirit with Bless and he gets a Good result on Mage Hands it's completely unclear whether you go with Spirit+2 or Spirit+1.

It also doesn't address penalties at all. Would the effects of Confusion (-1 on all actions) stack with Psychic Shield (-2 to all Psionic attempts to affect the target, such as Pyrokinesis or Mind Blast), and do either of those stack with range and/or Stymied?

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MalicWanderer
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby MalicWanderer » Fri May 24, 2019 2:00 pm

I've sort of skimmed most of the thread so just a couple thoughts
  • Cards should always add to everything. It wouldn't feel right otherwise and I don't think they'd be doing much of their job. If one perk or buff spell negates 2/3 or all of Adrenaline it's suddenly a dead card.
  • "Str +3 is the weapons damage, not a bonus to strength" feels like the way to go.
  • I sort of feel like perks should just stack with not perks. At least permanently on perks. It feels a lot less cool casting Bless if everyone has a perk that it won't stack with.

Edit to add: if magic items are the source of concern, couldn't you just say (gear) Magic Items don't stack with anything but cards, or something like that?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 2:44 pm

MalicWanderer wrote:I've sort of skimmed most of the thread so just a couple thoughts
  • Cards should always add to everything. It wouldn't feel right otherwise and I don't think they'd be doing much of their job. If one perk or buff spell negates 2/3 or all of Adrenaline it's suddenly a dead card.
  • "Str +3 is the weapons damage, not a bonus to strength" feels like the way to go.
  • I sort of feel like perks should just stack with not perks. At least permanently on perks. It feels a lot less cool casting Bless if everyone has a perk that it won't stack with.

Edit to add: if magic items are the source of concern, couldn't you just say (gear) Magic Items don't stack with anything but cards, or something like that?


Cards add.

Correct on the Strength + 3 being the damage.

We'll figure out the wording before we finalize this. But I can say for sure:

1. Cards stack.
2. Conditions stack.
3. Combat options stack.

It may very well be that the way to go will be to say that "Bonuses and penalties from Perks, spells, miracles, psionic powers, and gear do not stack. Take the highest bonus and the lowest penalty."
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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 3:07 pm

And after conferring with Darrell, that is in fact, what we are going to do:

"Bonuses or penalties from Perks, spells, miracles, psionics, or gear do not stack. Take the best bonus or worst penalty. Modifers such as conditions (Stymied/Vulnerable), combat options (Active Defense, Aim, All-Out-Attack, Darkness), and cards all stack.

Exactly whether a bonus or penalty should stack beyond that is the GM's call. Basically, be reasonable about it."
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Greymarch2000 » Fri May 24, 2019 3:34 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Basically, be reasonable about it."


Oh sweet summer children :p

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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 3:39 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Basically, be reasonable about it."


Oh sweet summer children :p


Yeah, I know. :-)
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