Stacking Clarification

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Atama
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Atama » Fri May 24, 2019 9:28 am

Sir Awesome wrote:To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that, and this stacking rule makes that even more true.

I know power creep is very very important thing to watch as more and more books get released, but you don't want to loose character growth in the process, and I believe this stacking rule as a global rule will contribute greatly to that.

At 40 XP there is so much more I can get and want to get and despair about how long it will take to get there. It costs exponentially more XP to get more Perks but the rate we gain XP is flat. I won’t even be close to “satisfied” by 80 XP I’m sure.

Are you not looking in the Beta Clearance Player’s Primer? Or are your PCs from cosms without expansion books yet? If you restrict yourself to only what’s in the Core Rules I could see running out of things you want, maybe. Though I also wonder if they’re making their characters one-dimensional, which is something that early on I wanted to avoid with my own character.

Anyway this doesn’t seem like a general flaw in the rules, not just because it isn’t a problem to me but also because I haven’t seen it come up on the boards before. And I’ve been reading them almost since the beginning.
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Spatula
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Spatula » Fri May 24, 2019 11:18 am

I suppose it depends on the character and how focused you want to be. But unless you mix-maxed chargen and started with a 13 stat, it takes a fair amount of XP just to top off your primary skill (Mastery + 8 adds), and nevermind buying up all the perks (and if you did min-max chargen, you have a lot of glaring interaction weaknesses to shore up). But granted, some concepts don't have a depth of perks to choose from yet - mainly thinking spellcasters here. 11 XP for one more spell isn't so enticing.

Personally, I like broadly competent characters, so it's hard for me to run out of perks that I want or abilities I want to improve.

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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Fri May 24, 2019 11:48 am

Atama wrote:
Sir Awesome wrote:To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that, and this stacking rule makes that even more true.

I know power creep is very very important thing to watch as more and more books get released, but you don't want to loose character growth in the process, and I believe this stacking rule as a global rule will contribute greatly to that.

At 40 XP there is so much more I can get and want to get and despair about how long it will take to get there. It costs exponentially more XP to get more Perks but the rate we gain XP is flat. I won’t even be close to “satisfied” by 80 XP I’m sure.


Just change the XP award. For ages, I changed it to 2 XP a scene as it would take weeks to complete an act for my PCs. Most adventures are 3-5 scenes per act, so the PC's had a larger amount in the long run, but they got it in drips and drabs, meaning that they were more satisfied as well.

You can always house rule XP, just make it consistent.
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Atama » Fri May 24, 2019 12:01 pm

GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:
Atama wrote:
Sir Awesome wrote:To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that, and this stacking rule makes that even more true.

I know power creep is very very important thing to watch as more and more books get released, but you don't want to loose character growth in the process, and I believe this stacking rule as a global rule will contribute greatly to that.

At 40 XP there is so much more I can get and want to get and despair about how long it will take to get there. It costs exponentially more XP to get more Perks but the rate we gain XP is flat. I won’t even be close to “satisfied” by 80 XP I’m sure.


Just change the XP award. For ages, I changed it to 2 XP a scene as it would take weeks to complete an act for my PCs. Most adventures are 3-5 scenes per act, so the PC's had a larger amount in the long run, but they got it in drips and drabs, meaning that they were more satisfied as well.

You can always house rule XP, just make it consistent.

I just did the math and we’ve been playing our campaign for 17 months, and we are at 40 XP. We play every other week except when we have to skip. It generally takes us on average a bit more than 2 months to complete an act and get an XP reward. I know our GM hates power creep because he’s been burned by that in the past so I doubt he’d do anything to accelerate our rate of gain. I think your idea is a nice one.

Maybe he’d be good with 1 XP per scene, which in theory would slow down how quickly we get XP but we would gain it more steadily. But I get the feeling he has a lot of scenes per act so maybe we’d get more. I dunno.
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 12:05 pm

agarrett wrote:Does this in any way impact the dwarf armor massive damage build? The perks involved:

- Dragon Warrior / Dragon Claws - Does Str+3/AP2 damage
- Dragon Warrior / Giant Strength - Increase Strength by 2 for tests and damage
- Brawler - Do Str+2 damage with bare hands, stacks with other bonuses like edeinos claw attacks

This combo appears fairly common from what I can tell, and is way over-the-top in comparison to almost everything else. Tentatively, it looks like this change to stacking would not affect this though. Brawler specifically says it stacks, dragon claws adds to damage, and giant strength adds to strength. The dragon claws/giant strength is the only one that might be affected by this, though, so figured I'd check.

Thanks.


I'll get back to you on this. It's the Giant Strength wording that's at issue.
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 12:10 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:Ok but you have in the past said that the brawler perk stacks with the Dragon Claws from Dragon Armor Dwarf perk, and it says in the Book that it stacks with the Edeinos Claws. All of those things add to Str for determining in Dmg, and in addition all of those stack with the giant str that the dwarf armor can give you as well.

This seams to be in conflict with your rules as stated above. Or do the stacking rules not apply to dmg?


For melee weapons and other weapons that cause damage based on Strength, we have on page 148:

"Bonus is added directly to the damage for Strength-based
weapons. This may be a fixed number for
weapons like chainsaws or power saws that deal
damage regardless of the force behind them."

In other words, the "Strength +3" is the damage. So if you get a +2 bonus to damage on top of that, that's fine.


Also Super skill specifically says that it stacks with all other skill increases. How does that work with your stacking rules? Is it an exception, because that make it so much more powerful that everything else when it is already amazing.


Super-skill specifically increases the adds directly. It's not a bonus. Personally I wish we'd done that one differently.
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 12:20 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:This discussion is actually I believe a perfect place to put this personal feeling that I have been having about the system for awhile now.

Character growth and character improvement is a very important part of any roleplaying game. If peoples character are not getting "better/more powerful" than you are eliminating a large part of that "growth" feeling. I am not saying that characters getting more powerful is the only way to feel growth, but I believe that it is a part of that feeling of enjoying a campaign and story. If Ironman had the same suit for all of the movies we would have enjoyed them, but not as much because there wouldn't have been as much growth in the character.



Yes, but remember in Iron Man, his abilities did not grow exponentially, and having worked on Marvel Heroic Roleplaying that is a perfect example of growth not requiring major improvements in power of a character.

So, I don't deny that this is important to you, but I will disagree that it is a very important part of all RPGs. And Torg Eternity has that kind of growth but...


In this system members of my group have felt that it has been too easy to get to the top of the ladder for awhile. Armor and dmg are super easy to max out as you can almost come right out of character gen with them maxed. Interaction skills take a little while longer, but realistically characters will pick one or two to be really good at and be avg at the rest of them. Spells/miracles/psi prob take the longest, but you can still have everything you really care about by your 5th or 6th perk.

To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that, and this stacking rule makes that even more true.

I know power creep is very very important thing to watch as more and more books get released, but you don't want to loose character growth in the process, and I believe this stacking rule as a global rule will contribute greatly to that.


As you say, the skill cap is hit too early. I can't say much about this just yet, but we are aware of this.

But this is a completely different issue to Stacking. To be clear, multiple stacking was never intended to be in the game, and it was never intended for character growth to be via amassing more and more powerful gear.
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby fougerec » Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:
To sum up we feel that most characters can have everything they really want by about 60 to 80 xp before they are just buying +1 to this or that, and this stacking rule makes that even more true.


My 150xp characters beg to differ. Perks get exponentially more expensive and as more cosm books come out there's more perks to look at. Maxing out a skill takes time as well.

If you're absolutely laser focused on one thing then yes you can peak fairly early. At that point though you don't have a character, you have a character sheet.

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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Sir Awesome » Fri May 24, 2019 1:06 pm

Next question,

How does this work with Drama Cards?

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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 24, 2019 1:12 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:Next question,

How does this work with Drama Cards?


You mean Destiny Cards? This doesn't affect them. They're an exception.
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