One-time-use Destiny Cards?

paln
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 am

One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby paln » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:43 am

Hi,

I have two card-related questions.

  • I'm now two sessions in in my new campaign, and one of the players drove me crazy with a Connection card that he used multiple times. He wasn't too unreasonable so I played along, but it got me thinking. Shouldn't this card be a one-time use?

    The same question could be asked about other cards like Idea, Nemesis, Romance and Martyr, because using those too often can easily cheapen or devalue them.

    Unless I missed something, this isn't covered in the rules. I intend to have those cards discarded after use. In fact, the first time a player played Romance, he spontaneously gave it back to me.
  • On a related note, how do you play Alertness? One of my players had it during half the session and I couldn't really decide. If I let the player decide when to use it, the probability that the card would be wasted every time is high. If I give hints that it'd be a good idea to use it, it's too easy. I was thinking of making it one-time use, but making sure that it isn't wasted.

What do you think?

GeniusCodeMonkey
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 2:35 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:20 am

All cards are 'one time use'. If you play romance, it immediately goes into the discard pile.
Any cards that are 'put in front of you for the GM to use' , like alertness, I get my players to give me the card and I put it in front on me to remind me it's there.

I play Alertness in two ways, either as a free Find or Evidence Analysis roll, or as a way for them to not be surprised in ambushes. If you find the card is hanging around for a bit, the next combat just pick up the card, tell them the hairs on the back of their necks start prickling and say they have a round to get ready and put a card into their pools.
Question everything.
Politeness costs nothing.

paln
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby paln » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:37 am

GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:All cards are 'one time use'.


Are you sure? This actually makes sense to me, but I can't see that written anywhere in the rule book.Page 113, it says:

Players pick up all the cards in their pool at the end of each battle and reduce their hands down to four cards if they had more than that. At the end of each scene players with less than four cards draw up to four. After that, all players may discard one card and draw back up to four.


"Pick up all all the cards in their pool" means (English isn't my first language) that players get to keep cards that they put in their action pool, so that they can use them again later.

But, as I said, after a couple of sessions, I don't like that very much. Players tend to cling to specific cards and the only way to pry them out of their hands is to start a new act. ;)

GeniusCodeMonkey
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 2:35 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:06 am

paln wrote:
GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:All cards are 'one time use'.


Are you sure? This actually makes sense to me, but I can't see that written anywhere in the rule book.Page 113, it says:

Players pick up all the cards in their pool at the end of each battle and reduce their hands down to four cards if they had more than that. At the end of each scene players with less than four cards draw up to four. After that, all players may discard one card and draw back up to four.


"Pick up all all the cards in their pool" means (English isn't my first language) that players get to keep cards that they put in their action pool, so that they can use them again later.

But, as I said, after a couple of sessions, I don't like that very much. Players tend to cling to specific cards and the only way to pry them out of their hands is to start a new act. ;)


Definitely 100% sure. As soon as it's used. It is discarded and no longer part of their hand.
Question everything.
Politeness costs nothing.

Staffan
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:48 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby Staffan » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:57 am

paln wrote:
GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:All cards are 'one time use'.


Are you sure? This actually makes sense to me, but I can't see that written anywhere in the rule book.Page 113, it says:

Players pick up all the cards in their pool at the end of each battle and reduce their hands down to four cards if they had more than that. At the end of each scene players with less than four cards draw up to four. After that, all players may discard one card and draw back up to four.


"Pick up all all the cards in their pool" means (English isn't my first language) that players get to keep cards that they put in their action pool, so that they can use them again later.

But, as I said, after a couple of sessions, I don't like that very much. Players tend to cling to specific cards and the only way to pry them out of their hands is to start a new act. ;)

I think you are confusing "putting a card in your pool" with "playing a card". Putting a card in your pool only makes it available for playing at a later time.

In other words, putting an Adrenaline card in your pool doesn't give you +3 to physical stats for the duration of the combat. Once you have an Adrenaline card in your pool, you can play it after rolling for a physical task to add +3 to that skill total. Once you've done that, the card goes into the discard pile, so you can't use it again without shenanigans.

paln
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby paln » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:03 am

It doesn't sound obvious when reading the phrase ("pick up after battle" doesn't mean discard to me), but it's indeed much more reasonable, game-wise. Thanks, I'll inform my players that the party's over. ;)

utsukushi
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby utsukushi » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:04 pm

That's... really interesting.

It's intrinsic to me that "playing" the card means you use it up, and that idea has been built up across many games, I'm sure. It would never even have occurred to me to think to ask that question, and like others here, I am absolutely certain that's the intent. Deanna could even ask Darrell if she wanted and I bet he wouldn't mess it up. I'm that confident. :P (Sorry, Paln, I don't know how long you've been following the forum and that's a bit of an inside joke - I have a long history of being on the wrong side of decisions that have gone to Darrell for official rulings.)

But when I really look, I can absolutely see how you're not reading it that way. The Critical Moment is like, the only place that specifies discarding, and it even talks about "playing into your pool" which, if you're open to that idea, suggests that playing a card and pooling a card are the same thing, and therefor Pooled cards are just... active, I guess?

Anyway, I did want to highlight, though, in case your players push back -- the Critical Moment rule only specifies that you discard the cards you didn't use to affect your action. It then goes on to confirm that this means your hand and pool will be left completely empty. If you held on to the cards you did use, that wouldn't be true. So it feels a little convoluted, but I do think it confirms the intention that cards are already expected to be discarded when you use them.

There are almost always still cards in your Pool at the end of a battle; those are the ones you pick back up. And it is definitely possible to end up with more cards than your hand size, especially if you play to the Approved Action a lot. But yeah, definitely remember that not only is a card lost when you use it, but a card in your Pool isn't actually doing anything yet. It's just available to play.

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TorgHacker
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Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:33 pm

utsukushi wrote:That's... really interesting.

It's intrinsic to me that "playing" the card means you use it up, and that idea has been built up across many games, I'm sure. It would never even have occurred to me to think to ask that question, and like others here, I am absolutely certain that's the intent. Deanna could even ask Darrell if she wanted and I bet he wouldn't mess it up. I'm that confident. :P (Sorry, Paln, I don't know how long you've been following the forum and that's a bit of an inside joke - I have a long history of being on the wrong side of decisions that have gone to Darrell for official rulings.)



Playing definitely involves discarding them.

Anyway, as to the particular text:

Characters start each scene with four Destiny cards
in their “hand.“ Destiny cards can be played at any
time when the game is not proceeding in rounds.

If the game is proceeding in
rounds (usually due to combat),
players must first build an
“Action Pool“ from their hand
before cards can be played. This
builds drama and forces tactical
choices by the group as they
build up their individual pools.

At the end of each player’s
turn, she may place one card
from her hand onto the table
in front of her as part of her
Action Pool. Pool cards are
always played face-up for all
to see, and may then be played
at any time—even immediately
(if applicable).
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

paln
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 am

Re: One-time-use Destiny Cards?

Postby paln » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:03 pm

Thanks for those additional answers. I think the problem is that, in this context, I didn't understand "played" as "discarded". Again, English isn't my native tongue, for me "played" only meant "activated". So all is clear now. :)

I have no doubt that my players will accept the change gracefully, so no problem there.

The way we played in the first two sessions, with players clinging to good cards that they picked back up after each fight or scene, allowed them to skew tests slightly, and I ended up raising the difficulty for many rolls, roughly +2.

By returning to the intended rule, I'll probably be able to return difficulty to normal too. :)


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