Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

graethynne
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Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby graethynne » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:50 am

From the FAQ

"Q: Does the ‘minimum +1 bonus’ condition for Active Defense apply before or after any modifiers?

A: After."

Is this referring to modifiers to the roll or to the total? (I'm assuming the latter, since the mantra I have taught myself
is nothing effects the total on the die except rolling the die).

Does this mean that a poor roll of the d20 (say to a minus 8) could wipe out other positive modifiers so you wind up with only the +1 or does this mean that the value of d20 is always a miniumum of +1 regardless of what was rolled and other modifiers are applied in conjunction with said +1 (or better) from the d20 roll.

Graethynne

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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:02 am

graethynne wrote:From the FAQ

"Q: Does the ‘minimum +1 bonus’ condition for Active Defense apply before or after any modifiers?

A: After."

Is this referring to modifiers to the roll or to the total? (I'm assuming the latter, since the mantra I have taught myself
is nothing effects the total on the die except rolling the die).

Does this mean that a poor roll of the d20 (say to a minus 8) could wipe out other positive modifiers so you wind up with only the +1 or does this mean that the value of d20 is always a miniumum of +1 regardless of what was rolled and other modifiers are applied in conjunction with said +1 (or better) from the d20 roll.

Graethynne


The former. So if you rolled what would be a -8 bonus, and had a +4 modifer to it, that'd be a result of -4. Then if it's less than +1 it's set to +1.
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Savioronedge » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:24 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
graethynne wrote:From the FAQ

"Q: Does the ‘minimum +1 bonus’ condition for Active Defense apply before or after any modifiers?

A: After."

Is this referring to modifiers to the roll or to the total? (I'm assuming the latter, since the mantra I have taught myself
is nothing effects the total on the die except rolling the die).

Does this mean that a poor roll of the d20 (say to a minus 8) could wipe out other positive modifiers so you wind up with only the +1 or does this mean that the value of d20 is always a miniumum of +1 regardless of what was rolled and other modifiers are applied in conjunction with said +1 (or better) from the d20 roll.

Graethynne


The former. So if you rolled what would be a -8 bonus, and had a +4 modifer to it, that'd be a result of -4. Then if it's less than +1 it's set to +1.


Not intending to argue here...this is counter to the intent of the "minimum".

If I have a +4 bonus to my defense, I now risk losing most of that. I now have a 45% chance of being easier to hit because I sacrificed my action to defend.

This may be intentional. However, in Old Torg it was the bonus number of the die roll that was a minimum "+1" regardless of other modifiers.

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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Atama » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:42 pm

Savioronedge wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
graethynne wrote:From the FAQ

"Q: Does the ‘minimum +1 bonus’ condition for Active Defense apply before or after any modifiers?

A: After."

Is this referring to modifiers to the roll or to the total? (I'm assuming the latter, since the mantra I have taught myself
is nothing effects the total on the die except rolling the die).

Does this mean that a poor roll of the d20 (say to a minus 8) could wipe out other positive modifiers so you wind up with only the +1 or does this mean that the value of d20 is always a miniumum of +1 regardless of what was rolled and other modifiers are applied in conjunction with said +1 (or better) from the d20 roll.

Graethynne


The former. So if you rolled what would be a -8 bonus, and had a +4 modifer to it, that'd be a result of -4. Then if it's less than +1 it's set to +1.


Not intending to argue here...this is counter to the intent of the "minimum".

If I have a +4 bonus to my defense, I now risk losing most of that. I now have a 45% chance of being easier to hit because I sacrificed my action to defend.

This may be intentional. However, in Old Torg it was the bonus number of the die roll that was a minimum "+1" regardless of other modifiers.

What situation gives you a passive +4 defense that you lose with an Active Defense?
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:20 pm

Savioronedge wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
graethynne wrote:From the FAQ

"Q: Does the ‘minimum +1 bonus’ condition for Active Defense apply before or after any modifiers?

A: After."

Is this referring to modifiers to the roll or to the total? (I'm assuming the latter, since the mantra I have taught myself
is nothing effects the total on the die except rolling the die).

Does this mean that a poor roll of the d20 (say to a minus 8) could wipe out other positive modifiers so you wind up with only the +1 or does this mean that the value of d20 is always a miniumum of +1 regardless of what was rolled and other modifiers are applied in conjunction with said +1 (or better) from the d20 roll.

Graethynne


The former. So if you rolled what would be a -8 bonus, and had a +4 modifer to it, that'd be a result of -4. Then if it's less than +1 it's set to +1.


Not intending to argue here...this is counter to the intent of the "minimum".

If I have a +4 bonus to my defense, I now risk losing most of that. I now have a 45% chance of being easier to hit because I sacrificed my action to defend.

This may be intentional. However, in Old Torg it was the bonus number of the die roll that was a minimum "+1" regardless of other modifiers.


You know what? You're right. I'll be switching that.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Istrian » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:32 am

TorgHacker wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
The former. So if you rolled what would be a -8 bonus, and had a +4 modifer to it, that'd be a result of -4. Then if it's less than +1 it's set to +1.


Not intending to argue here...this is counter to the intent of the "minimum".

If I have a +4 bonus to my defense, I now risk losing most of that. I now have a 45% chance of being easier to hit because I sacrificed my action to defend.

This may be intentional. However, in Old Torg it was the bonus number of the die roll that was a minimum "+1" regardless of other modifiers.


You know what? You're right. I'll be switching that.


I think that would actually increase the chance of Active Defense being worse than no Active Defense: if you are Very Stymied and get the minimum +1 to the die bonus, then the final modifier -3. With the current way it works it would still be a +1.

Like Atama said, I can't think of a situation where you would have a +4 (or any) bonus to passive defence you would lose with Active Defense.

graethynne
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby graethynne » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:05 am

Istrian wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
Not intending to argue here...this is counter to the intent of the "minimum".

If I have a +4 bonus to my defense, I now risk losing most of that. I now have a 45% chance of being easier to hit because I sacrificed my action to defend.

This may be intentional. However, in Old Torg it was the bonus number of the die roll that was a minimum "+1" regardless of other modifiers.


You know what? You're right. I'll be switching that.


I think that would actually increase the chance of Active Defense being worse than no Active Defense: if you are Very Stymied and get the minimum +1 to the die bonus, then the final modifier -3. With the current way it works it would still be a +1.

Like Atama said, I can't think of a situation where you would have a +4 (or any) bonus to passive defence you would lose with Active Defense.


Very Stymied caps at -4, the d20 goes all the way to -8. So I guess it depends on which you expect to negatively impact you more. But at the end of the day, as a player (which I am not, since I the only person I know who will run Torg ... grrrr ....) I know whether I am very stymied and can choose whether to take an active defense despite that. I can never know what my roll would be, so I would rather be able to control that downside than the other.

That said, the cake and eat it two solution would just be that the minimum +1 applies to both the bonus chart and the final result. Which is maybe the simplest too.....

Grae

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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Istrian » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:59 am

graethynne wrote:
Istrian wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
You know what? You're right. I'll be switching that.


I think that would actually increase the chance of Active Defense being worse than no Active Defense: if you are Very Stymied and get the minimum +1 to the die bonus, then the final modifier -3. With the current way it works it would still be a +1.

Like Atama said, I can't think of a situation where you would have a +4 (or any) bonus to passive defence you would lose with Active Defense.


Very Stymied caps at -4, the d20 goes all the way to -8. So I guess it depends on which you expect to negatively impact you more. But at the end of the day, as a player (which I am not, since I the only person I know who will run Torg ... grrrr ....) I know whether I am very stymied and can choose whether to take an active defense despite that. I can never know what my roll would be, so I would rather be able to control that downside than the other.

That said, the cake and eat it two solution would just be that the minimum +1 applies to both the bonus chart and the final result. Which is maybe the simplest too.....

Grae


I think I am failing to understand something.
  • Currently the way AD works is that no matter the result of the action, you have a +1 to all defences. Even if you have wound penalties or Stymied conditions you are guaranteed to have a +1 to your Defences. I can see no situation when this would cause a character to have lower Defences than their default values so AD is always beneficial. From what I could see in the rulebooks any bonuses to any Defense apply to the passive value, and therefore the active value as well.
  • With the proposed change the +1 will only apply to the die roll. Therefore a character who is Wounded or Stymied may have a lower AD than passive. This would make AD a risky move with a downside, rather than always useful.

graethynne
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby graethynne » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:51 am

Istrian wrote:
graethynne wrote:
Istrian wrote:

I think I am failing to understand something.
  • Currently the way AD works is that no matter the result of the action, you have a +1 to all defences. Even if you have wound penalties or Stymied conditions you are guaranteed to have a +1 to your Defences. I can see no situation when this would cause a character to have lower Defences than their default values so AD is always beneficial. From what I could see in the rulebooks any bonuses to any Defense apply to the passive value, and therefore the active value as well.
  • With the proposed change the +1 will only apply to the die roll. Therefore a character who is Wounded or Stymied may have a lower AD than passive. This would make AD a risky move with a downside, rather than always useful.


"Currently" is a little bit slippery as Deanna mentioned changing it.

Prior to this thread though is safe territory. Basically imagine a situation where there are cards or perks or what have you that will or can improve your defense or even just the defense itself. Say Dodge of 8. Under the prior ruling if you rolled say a 2 on the d20, so -8 on the bonus chart you take that -8 add your dodge value of 8 and you are zero, but since you must get a minimum of +1 it bumps it up to +1 which is 7 points worse than if you had not taken the active defense. Under the discussed change you would start at -8, transform that into a +1 and add you 8 ranks for an Active dodge of 9, or one better than where you would have been. [*edit* basically under the old rule you have to "pay for" the drawback of a bad roll on the active defense d20 and under the new rule you don't, but instead have to "pay for" Stymied or Very Stymied and under the old rule you didn't]

If you are stymied or very stymied, maybe you don't take an active defense because the odds of it not benefiting you go up with that penalty, or maybe you plan on spending a possibility to force it into positive territory.

Anyhow, that's my understanding of where things are at the moment and how we got here. Hope it helped!

Graethynne

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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Istrian » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:06 am

I see. I always assumed under the old rule, to take the same example, that if you roll a -8 to your AD, your Dodge becomes 9 (base 8 + "minimum of +1 to the total bonus") instead of 1 (base 8 - 8 from the roll +1 from the rule).


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