Maelstrom

ZorValachan
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:54 pm

When the ruling was announced, i was ok with it, but now I'm like others not sure. Maelstrom could be played after the last possibility is spent, but before it's rolled or totalled and thus before soaking. Coup d'tate may be ok played after the damage total is calculated. And before soaking. Same thing with any if the action or adrenaline cards. Played after totals, but before soak. So with the card not specifying, I'm not sure of the reason Maelstrom couldn't be played like this...
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utsukushi
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby utsukushi » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:37 pm

Well, it's the reason Deanna stated -- because if you can play it after you know you've hit them for enough Wounds, it takes away the thing that makes Possibility-rated enemies scary. And I haven't seen it come up in play yet, which does leave me wondering, like Gargoyle, if it's really a big problem that needs fixing.

But I also don't disagree with the spirit of the ruling. I think it's fair to say Soaking is pretty sacrosanct; Maelstrom still is the only thing that really shuts it down, and you even still can play it right at the end of a turn when all the Heroes have gone and benefited from their Possibilities. Just not being able to slip it in between a Possibility-bought Outstanding Attack and the Soak doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

I just don't think the rationale behind the ruling is quite RAW - they're not effectively simultaneous since the damage roll still has to happen before the Soaking can, so it seems like by the rules if the reason is, "Because they can declare Soak as fast as you can declare Maelstrom," that means you can't roll your damage and make really sure you just got 5 Wounds, but you can make sure you have all your Bonus Dice and then play it. And sometimes that will be the same thing, if really low BD rolls will still get you enough Wounds to finish them off... but that seems like even fewer places where it's an "I Win" so... for something that I do think needs an errata if that's how it's supposed to work, again, I don't know if it's actually worth an errata.

graethynne
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby graethynne » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:52 pm

the analogy I used to describe it was dialog box pop ups.

Once you've rolled the hit all* you can do is modify the hit and/or modify damage then the target will get to choose whether to soak (or I suppose use Minions like abilities) as represented by dialog pop-ups. Once you've cleared them all you are free to do whatever else you want, but taht will be after the decision about soaking has been executed.

*this is a bit of an over simplification but it makes the execution of the card very clean at the table.

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Kanaris
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Kanaris » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:52 pm

utsukushi wrote:Well, it's the reason Deanna stated -- because if you can play it after you know you've hit them for enough Wounds, it takes away the thing that makes Possibility-rated enemies scary. And I haven't seen it come up in play yet, which does leave me wondering, like Gargoyle, if it's really a big problem that needs fixing.

But I also don't disagree with the spirit of the ruling. I think it's fair to say Soaking is pretty sacrosanct; Maelstrom still is the only thing that really shuts it down, and you even still can play it right at the end of a turn when all the Heroes have gone and benefited from their Possibilities. Just not being able to slip it in between a Possibility-bought Outstanding Attack and the Soak doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

I just don't think the rationale behind the ruling is quite RAW - they're not effectively simultaneous since the damage roll still has to happen before the Soaking can, so it seems like by the rules if the reason is, "Because they can declare Soak as fast as you can declare Maelstrom," that means you can't roll your damage and make really sure you just got 5 Wounds, but you can make sure you have all your Bonus Dice and then play it. And sometimes that will be the same thing, if really low BD rolls will still get you enough Wounds to finish them off... but that seems like even fewer places where it's an "I Win" so... for something that I do think needs an errata if that's how it's supposed to work, again, I don't know if it's actually worth an errata.


I think there is two ways to interpret timing and sequence. One is gameplay, and I agree the way you have set it out. The way our group rationalises possibilities is that they alter "the lines of if" so that (when spent to soak) the damage is less or not taken at all. In that way, the possibility is "spent" *before* the damage, reversing the gameplay sequence. And I think what distinguishes Maelstrom from cards like Coup de Grace is that it represents a transient external event which cannot take place between the time of a possibility being spent and damage being taken, whereas Coup de Grace is a modification to the damage itself. Which is perhaps all a long-winded way of saying I agree with you about the spirit of the ruling ;)

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Gargoyle
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:24 pm

The spirit of the ruling is fine, that is the intent of making soaking unstoppable as long as you have the Possibility to spend on it. But I'm not sure I agree that the logic of it being a free action protecting it from what is essentially another free action.

As far as the timing, I agree that we don't need or want a bunch of rules or rulings about timing of what goes first or what interrupts what. Reminds me of old school Magic the Gathering interrupt cards and all those arguments. But I've never had that issue at my table for much in Torg, and definitely not this, because typically the player throws down the Maelstrom as the last card after a Drama and Hero and Coup d grace, etc before the villain soaks.

In fact, umm...sorry Deanna, not to make your life harder, but I just remembered that this actually happened at the end of the fight against Jezrael at the Backers game at GenCon. This is how we killed her. We had an alternate method, had Darryl ruled otherwise, that would have been the Martyr card in my hand. She was SOOO tough. It did not feel cheesy to win this way. Not saying mention of this invalidates what you're saying though. Maybe he ruled wrong.

I think the other things that makes me want to let them use Maelstrom to cancel soaks is that villains can't do it, and since the players have to choose when to do it, they often have to hold onto that card all game or use it sub-optimally. I'm leaning toward allowing it to cancel soaking.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:24 pm

Gargoyle wrote:I've been playing this wrong then. Knowing that there is only one of these cards in the deck, and that playing it is also sort of a free action, I interpreted it as "the I win" card, not really "an I win" card, so I was okay with it and we've had a couple of fun epic moments with it. I might keep playing it the way I've been using it, but maybe not. It's a good point that you still have to get a good roll and probably spend other cards too to still win against a tough villain. I'll have to think about this one.


Mind you it's such an "I win" card that it will almost always be hoarded by players for the final combat, or if used earlier be brought back by Master Plan potentially twice. It cancelling end fight villain soak is 90% of its use at my table, I think almost every Act has ended with its use.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:I've been playing this wrong then. Knowing that there is only one of these cards in the deck, and that playing it is also sort of a free action, I interpreted it as "the I win" card, not really "an I win" card, so I was okay with it and we've had a couple of fun epic moments with it. I might keep playing it the way I've been using it, but maybe not. It's a good point that you still have to get a good roll and probably spend other cards too to still win against a tough villain. I'll have to think about this one.


Mind you it's such an "I win" card that it will almost always be hoarded by players for the final combat, or if used earlier be brought back by Master Plan potentially twice. It cancelling end fight villain soak is 90% of its use at my table, I think almost every Act has ended with its use.


Yeah, it could be that my players just didn't recognize it as being great until recently and I don't think we play as often as you.

I do think this speaks to a bigger problem than just Maelstrom possibly being OP. Clever card play can potentially wreck any encounter as a good group will set up some awesome plays and take advantage of any half decent roll. I think the game could use more threats with special abilities that force discards to disrupt some of those plans. Insidious and Gloater are great, but adding another one for less powerful foes to use in earlier scenes might be interesting. While clever at first, once players figure out a few of the combos and strategies with cards, and which card is valuable for what situation, it's no longer really clever. It feels sometimes like the game is more about the cards than the characters.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:42 pm

There are a few threats that allow stealing of destiny cards and use by the stealer. One could grab a hero, drama and Maelstrom and do the same to a player character.

In my games i call it the Molotov cocktail rule. Once a group does the same thing like that a couple times, word WILL spread and it'll be used against them.
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Kuildeous
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:29 am

We discussed this in my PbP game. The situation didn’t come up; we just sometimes talk the metagame for the hell of it. My take on the card is:

I get what Deanna is saying since soaking is part of what makes major villains feel like major villains. I feel like the intent of Maelstrom is to be this super-scary card that hurts both sides, which is where the decision to play it becomes really important. And if the players wait to play it until after they guarantee a +5BD attack, then Maelstrom is no longer a scary card. It becomes an “I win” card, which dulls the threat of the major villain.

When used in the situation outlined in that thread, the Storm Knights get all the benefits of Possibilities while the villain gets none. I can’t say 100% what their intent is, but I feel that isn’t it.


And maybe my feeling on the card is off. It feels like it’s a high-risk, high-reward card. You can’t have the reward without the risk.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby ZorValachan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:07 am

I'll just say I don't see the difference between this and playing Maelstrom first on an Up round, using supporter, action, adrenalin, all out atrack to make sure you get Outstanding, then Reckless for an extra BD along with 2 Coup de Grace cards. The end result is the same +5BD not able to be soaked. The Possibility, Drama, Hero Maelstrom set up is giving maybe an Outstanding (+2BD) it's not adding more to damage if there's no extra cards/perks along with it anyway.

I haven't had this set up in my own game. The one time it was used, one player complained loudly it was going to prevent him from soaking any damage the remaining threats might give him. So I'm not sure how i feel about it.
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