Preview #3 - Characters

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blackwind1kaze
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:44 pm

Not rules-light but they have made it more user-friendly and streamlined so while more experienced players can dig deep into crunch that is there (using Pathfinder as an example as I have Played/GM'd it a lot in the past) for even more interesting and complex characters, they also allow the ability for completely new players to not be overwhelmed by the crunch while still feeling like they are doing something most of the time. D&D 5E has mainly been the one for the most part to take it to the extreme trying to make sure the crunch doesn't harm the Role-Playing experience like some other things *looking at the poison rulings for Pathfinder*.

Side Note: To be very honest, I have to be glad I backed the KS of Dark Eye and have my book as just yesterday I tried running the quickstart and both most of the players and me even realized there was a lot missing (and i won't even mention the Skills >_>; ).
I don't always GM, but when i do, I go out in style :ugeek:

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:11 pm

wilcoxon wrote:Why the different costs to improve an attribute at creation vs later? I hate systems that do this as it means there are mathematically optimal builds (and you will be at a disadvantage if you don't at least build close to one).


I can't go into details yet, but the mathematically optimal build for XP expenditure would not be the optimal build for game play. So yes, it would be cheaper over a long time of increasing your attributes, but then you're not increasing skills, or buying Perks. In the meantime your weaknesses would be large and being exploited via interaction attacks.
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Flash
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Flash » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:30 am

wilcoxon wrote:Why the different costs to improve an attribute at creation vs later? I hate systems that do this as it means there are mathematically optimal builds (and you will be at a disadvantage if you don't at least build close to one).


You are not alone in this. I don't know much about Torg and only read this out of curiosity but that is so far the only really bad thing I found in the previews. That sounds like the classic linear cost at generation and exponential cost while playing mistake.

A mechanic made for for the dung heap that punishes the one who builds interesting characters and favour the one who games the system. Especially if you do longer campaigns.

A number of rule systems got rid of it during edition changes for a reason. Most well known example is probable WoD but also TDE did it when going from 4E to 5E. Strangely Exalted 3E kept it to the dismay to a seizable number of its fans and Shadowrun is learn resistant as well.

wilcoxon
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby wilcoxon » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:32 am

Quick tangent...

Flash wrote:A number of rule systems got rid of it during edition changes for a reason. Most well known example is probable WoD but also TDE did it when going from 4E to 5E. Strangely Exalted 3E kept it to the dismay to a seizable number of its fans and Shadowrun is learn resistant as well.


I didn't know TDE 4e had that issue. Shadowrun has fixed it at least twice (and I think 3-4 times) - every version (except first) they eventually come out with Karma Generation but then they come out with a new version and go back to not using Karma Generation as the default (it does require more math but it gets rid of the problem (and it is a big problem in Shadowrun)). The earliest system I know of that used points and avoided this issue was Champions/Hero.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Kuildeous » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:50 pm

Doc Gordon wrote:Possibilities are the Experience Points of the game; why? Economy. As long as you don't have a Monty Hall Game Master, and/or a killer or wussy GM, the players have to make vital decisions about the advancement and/or salvation of their character. That is unique.



Meh, not that unique. Marvel Super Heroes had karma that could influence your rolls or improve your character. I want to say Shadowrun did too, though I may be confusing that because they also had something called karma. We had this system in a GURPS game, but I suspect that was a house rule.

It was an interesting little experiment, but it failed. Getting rid of it will be a good thing. I didn't realize this until my friend ran a game a few years back. My wife joined in, and she was very frustrated that she was the only one to spend Possibilities to help accomplish our goals. As a veteran I recognized that some situations did not justify spending a Possibility, but she did not. She wanted to do heroics, but nobody else was being heroic enough in her eyes.

When she realized that the reason was so that we couldn't advance our characters very much if we drained our Possibilities, she identified the big flaw in original Torg. It took an outsider's voice to make clear to me that this unique little system was horrible design.

If you want to make your game heroic, then the first thing you do is make sure there are no obstacles preventing the players from being heroic. Sacrificing advancement for dice manipulation was a pretty big obstacle. No wonder many of our fights could take over 10 rounds to finish.

All in all, the character system looks interesting. I like that Strength and Toughness are conflated. Reminds me of Unknown Armies. I would probably call it Brawn instead of Strength though. That's my 2 cents.
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Plageman
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Plageman » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:23 pm

If I remember correctly, in the WEG games only Ghostbusters and Torg used "special points" as experience too. In all D6 and later in SZ/MB you had two currencies, one for experience and one for heroics. Sure in D6 you could spend a Character Point to get an extra dice but it almost never happened.

All in all I'm glad with changes and hope it will make the game move faster.

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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:02 pm

Are the other damage effects (K, O, Knockdown) still in effect? And are the number of wounds before death the same as before?
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:08 pm

Rabbitball wrote:Are the other damage effects (K, O, Knockdown) still in effect? And are the number of wounds before death the same as before?


I'll be covering combat in a future preview. Can't really say until then.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:25 pm

One of the more interesting aspects is that, so far, all of the X vs. Y interactions listed have X and Y governed by the same attribute. The interaction skills were always like that, but before damage was Strength vs. Toughness, which is now aligned. The only other one I can think of right now from OTorg was charm/persuasion (Charisma) vs. willpower (Mind).
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #3 - Characters

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:33 pm

I realize there is a magic preview coming up, but I was wondering if each spell is a Perk, or the ability to do magic in general.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering


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