Initiative

raezenkane
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Initiative

Postby raezenkane » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:47 pm

I realize that a preview of Combat is coming, wherein Initiative will no doubt be covered.
I just wanted to express a hope of mine.
Since there will probably be ways to increase attributes by way of magic, technology, miracles, and psionics, plus biotech if and when the Space Gods enter the game, I feel Initiative needs to be handled such that enhanced characters can act before unenhanced, and for multiple times a round, or phase or other time division.

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Rabbitball
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Re: Initiative

Postby Rabbitball » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:02 pm

raezenkane wrote:I realize that a preview of Combat is coming, wherein Initiative will no doubt be covered.
I just wanted to express a hope of mine.
Since there will probably be ways to increase attributes by way of magic, technology, miracles, and psionics, plus biotech if and when the Space Gods enter the game, I feel Initiative needs to be handled such that enhanced characters can act before unenhanced, and for multiple times a round, or phase or other time division.


I have had the opposite problem in one of my games. With enough enhancements, it is possible to ensure a character always goes first, even if it makes story sense for the character not to do so. One of the benefits of card-based initiative IMO is that it weights the initiatives to fit the intended story mood. Mr. +10 to initiative still has to wait for the villains in the climactic encounter 2/3 of the time, thus enhancing the climactic feel of that encounter. And if it was really important for the villains to go first in that dramatic encounter, there was always the fiat rule that all but insured such a result.
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Plageman
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Re: Initiative

Postby Plageman » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:57 am

I read two thing in the OP post: there's initiative but also multiple actions in the same round without penalty due to enhancements.

For the first point I agree with rabbit all, the card initiative let the GM have his encounters not ruined by fast PCs. In my current D&D game my group is acting before the enemies because of my poor rolls most of the time. It usually turn the action from tense to in the player's favor.

For the second I could imagine having a perk from cyberware or a gizmo or a magic item, allowing a second action without penalty, but of course making it a contradiction if not supported by the axioms. I don't want to see a mundane way of getting that effect for it can be used an abused.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Initiative

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:42 am

There's a Perk that allows a 2nd action at the cost of spending a Possibility.
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carldot34
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Re: Initiative

Postby carldot34 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:02 pm

That's good. I am a GM and players taking multiple actions as a standard tactic plays havoc with game balance. In my current game, one player has a haste effect. Takes him a round to activate it but once he gets moving, he is taking three combat actions to every other players one action.

On the subject of initiative, taking it out of the players direct control, except perhaps with a possibility spend, and changing the initiative each turn, keeps +10 initiative man from stealing the glory from the rest of the players.

I don't want to cripple players but I don't want the guy that knows the rules inside out to outshine the casual players or the people that prefer to play a role. Some of that is the GMs job but mechanics open to player abuse don't help the GMs job.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Initiative

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:33 pm

I just realized the change in thinking in terms of initiative.

Prior to 2000, the general consensus was that all one side goes and then another. This was how it was in D&D. One player rolls initiative vs. the GM. The winner had everyone go at once, leaving the other side to wait and hope not to drop anyone. There were some exceptions (GURPS), but it was also supported by other games (Torg).

But as D&D moved to 3e, the public perception of initiative changed to individual. I cannot think of any recently released games that don't have individual initiatives.

The neatest one I heard was for FFG's Star Wars. Everybody rolls initiative, but you don't have to go on your number. The highest PC initiative goes to whoever the party chooses to go first. Likewise, though the big boss might roll well, the minions will take that slot instead.

I think it'd be neat for Torg to maintain the card-based initiative but also have some flexibility in allowing combatants to act.
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Rabbitball
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Re: Initiative

Postby Rabbitball » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:38 pm

carldot34 wrote:That's good. I am a GM and players taking multiple actions as a standard tactic plays havoc with game balance. In my current game, one player has a haste effect. Takes him a round to activate it but once he gets moving, he is taking three combat actions to every other players one action.

On the subject of initiative, taking it out of the players direct control, except perhaps with a possibility spend, and changing the initiative each turn, keeps +10 initiative man from stealing the glory from the rest of the players.

I don't want to cripple players but I don't want the guy that knows the rules inside out to outshine the casual players or the people that prefer to play a role. Some of that is the GMs job but mechanics open to player abuse don't help the GMs job.


I'm less worried about the rest of the players. The players know what each character can do, and they can adjust to it. Where I'm more concerned is that the game can become "Just D&D" when the dramatic encounter gets "solved" by the entire team taking 2-3 actions before the villain can possibly react.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

raezenkane
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Re: Initiative

Postby raezenkane » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:11 am

Players with initiative boosts can dominate a fight, and rolling, calculating and organizing initiative increases the book keeping for GMs and players alike. Still, I myself prefer more granularity to the initiative process than "Your side goes first, then the bad guys".

In OTorg, initiative is determined by the drama card. First one side goes, then the other.
The multi-action rules in OTorg allowed extra actions during a turn. Hopefully they will be implemented in some way in Torg Eternity.

I may (with my groups' permission) experiment with an old Shadowrun type of initiative.
Initiative Base number (Dexterity Power or Speed push?) plus d6 roll as initiative, with Base or added d6 from magic, cyber, psi, miracle, etc.
First initiative pass goes in initiative order.
Second inititaive, subtract 10, go in initiative order.
Repeat for Third/Fourth.
Perhaps limit number of actions to some maximum (three or four)

wilcoxon
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Re: Initiative

Postby wilcoxon » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:42 pm

raezenkane wrote:I may (with my groups' permission) experiment with an old Shadowrun type of initiative.
Initiative Base number (Dexterity Power or Speed push?) plus d6 roll as initiative, with Base or added d6 from magic, cyber, psi, miracle, etc.
First initiative pass goes in initiative order.
Second inititaive, subtract 10, go in initiative order.
Repeat for Third/Fourth.
Perhaps limit number of actions to some maximum (three or four)


Actually that's not the old Shadowrun initiative - that's the new SR5 initiative. SR4 was completely different (so we'll ignore it). SR1-3 were base number + Xd6 (based on cyber, magic, etc) and highest goes first, subtract 10 (5?), highest goes first, repeat (this could lead to a super-fast character going multiple times before anyone else). In all versions, I believe actions were capped at 4 (although I vaguely recall there was a cheesy way to get a 5th action in at least one version).

johntfs
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Re: Initiative

Postby johntfs » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:36 am

I recall that in Old TORG I went by the cards and occasional special abilities. I think I through in something about one combat action per enemy character so you couldn't shoot one dude 87 times in the face. Actually, as I recall, I noted that anything you could do, the bad guys could also potentially do to you. So yeah, you can use your 17 Martial Arts skill to launch 3-4 attacks on a Shocktrooper and chop him into catmeat, but the Crimson Blade, the Nile villain with a 24 Melee Weapons Super-skill can do the same thing to you. You sure you want it to go that way?


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