Long Distance TORGE and More

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TiaMaster
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Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby TiaMaster » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:49 pm

There is something that me buying every single available book or item for TorgE hinges on - the ability to play online. My players are all ove rthe place now.
I read Dean say to not worry about this, But I can't help it.
Please, TorgHacker, provide updates on this ASAP, I would imagine its quite important to more than a few of us.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So having read all of the forums now I can put together some thoughts:

Minions. When a villain is near his minions and injured by an attack, he can make a reality skill test to have the attack transferred to a minion instead. You might imagine the insidious Wu Han of the Nile Empire takes advantage of this frequently!


This seems unnecessarily complicated with the rule of spending a Poss to reduce damage already in place. Also, it doesn't make much sense, it's weird.

ryric wrote:I presume Up will do the same thing it did in the old system - give an extra d20 roll added on.


With or without rolling again on 20s?

TorgHacker wrote:
ZeDiac wrote:Actually there is one thing I am afraid of : you are always talking about how things will be developed in the cosm sourcebooks... does that mean we could imagine rules to be changed even a little between the core book and the cosm sb ? It would bother me to have a reboot with the same mistakes as the original one. I really want this new version to be as coherent as possible which means not having the sourcebooks correcting/improving/changing rules of the core book. Tell me I am wrong to feel that way :|


I can't say 100% no, but I could say 99% no. For exactly the reason you state.


I would hope that like in most games, sourcebooks can "expand" greatly on existing rules. Maybe not as bad as OTorg sourcebooks, but new things are always nice. Please don't feel afraid to innovate.

Rabbitball wrote:I think we should wait until we see the cosm before deciding how accurate the Axioms are.


Feedback is appreciated, I've been told.

Zackzenobi wrote:...
Although the idea of the Blasted Land is Awesome, I have never been a fan of the Road Warrior franchise. Mostly because the stories always lacked Character development and plot. I know the that Mad Max Fury Road was very popular, but I was very bored. I like the idea of the Blasted Land, but I hope you have something up your sleeve, because all I see now is you taking away one of my favorite toys and not offering me anything in its place.


Zack, you're weird.

TorgHacker wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:
I've been adopting the stance lately that XP is never awarded. Experience is not a reward. It is a consequence, and that consequence happens whether you succeed or fail. In fact, some games (Call of Cthulhu and Unknown Armies 3e, for example) make attempts to mirror real-life experiences by letting failures be more valuable than successes. They are greater learning opportunities, after all. I'll probably treat XP more generally than that in Torg.


In Torg Eternity, you get a set amount of XP per session, so it's pretty much that.


Never had a problem with awarding individual players differing amounts of XP. Every player in TORG loved 'awards' and never complained. D&D is a different story.

Psionic mutants and Biotech...where'd all that come from??

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TorgHacker
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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:00 pm

TiaMaster wrote:There is something that me buying every single available book or item for TorgE hinges on - the ability to play online. My players are all ove rthe place now.
I read Dean say to not worry about this, But I can't help it.
Please, TorgHacker, provide updates on this ASAP, I would imagine its quite important to more than a few of us.



Unfortunately I'm not in charge of what gets revealed and when. Trust me when I say we are well aware of the demand for this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So having read all of the forums now I can put together some thoughts:

Minions. When a villain is near his minions and injured by an attack, he can make a reality skill test to have the attack transferred to a minion instead. You might imagine the insidious Wu Han of the Nile Empire takes advantage of this frequently!


This seems unnecessarily complicated with the rule of spending a Poss to reduce damage already in place. Also, it doesn't make much sense, it's weird.



It's to deal with villains who may be poor combatants themselves. Few opponents have this ability, but without it folks like Wu Han drop very quickly.


ryric wrote:I presume Up will do the same thing it did in the old system - give an extra d20 roll added on.


With or without rolling again on 20s?



Unless you're unskilled everyone's rolls explode on 20s.


TorgHacker wrote:
ZeDiac wrote:Actually there is one thing I am afraid of : you are always talking about how things will be developed in the cosm sourcebooks... does that mean we could imagine rules to be changed even a little between the core book and the cosm sb ? It would bother me to have a reboot with the same mistakes as the original one. I really want this new version to be as coherent as possible which means not having the sourcebooks correcting/improving/changing rules of the core book. Tell me I am wrong to feel that way :|


I can't say 100% no, but I could say 99% no. For exactly the reason you state.


I would hope that like in most games, sourcebooks can "expand" greatly on existing rules. Maybe not as bad as OTorg sourcebooks, but new things are always nice. Please don't feel afraid to innovate.



We'll add stuff if we think it's fun and allows us to encourage a thematic style of play. I'm not saying that we're going to use Orrorsh's old Perseverance mechanic, but that's the sort of thing we might see in the future. But we won't be introducing new skills or new systems like the old pulp powers or Martial Arts were like.

A lot of the mechanical heft will be supported by more Perks.

TorgHacker wrote:
Psionic mutants and Biotech...where'd all that come from??


With our Core Earth tech practically getting into the range of the old Nippon Tech...uh...Tech... we needed something to differentiate Pan-Pacfica. Currently 'advanced' tech is more likely to be biological in nature.

As for psionics, that came out of attaching psionic power to the Social axiom.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TiaMaster
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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby TiaMaster » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:41 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Unfortunately I'm not in charge of what gets revealed and when. Trust me when I say we are well aware of the demand for this.


Thats fine for most things, but this will most likely require much time to research and get proficient with whomever you partner with. Giving us some info on where or what to study would come in handy come T-day.


TorgHacker wrote:We'll add stuff if we think it's fun and allows us to encourage a thematic style of play. I'm not saying that we're going to use Orrorsh's old Perseverance mechanic, but that's the sort of thing we might see in the future. But we won't be introducing new skills or new systems like the old pulp powers or Martial Arts were like.

A lot of the mechanical heft will be supported by more Perks.


Say it isn't so. New skills and new systems are exactly why I like sourcebooks. Unless you are saying you can cover just as much ground with, say, something like oTorg's martial arts by adding new Perks?

If new Perks is a thing, why isn't new skills?

TorgHacker wrote:It's to deal with villains who may be poor combatants themselves. Few opponents have this ability, but without it folks like Wu Han drop very quickly.


Makes sense.

TorgHacker wrote:ith our Core Earth tech practically getting into the range of the old Nippon Tech...uh...Tech... we needed something to differentiate Pan-Pacfica. Currently 'advanced' tech is more likely to be biological in nature.

As for psionics, that came out of attaching psionic power to the Social axiom.


Okay, but you could have played it where it was POSSIBLE for psionics to exist, but they didn't yet. Just seems so...huge a system to put in for what seems like no reason.

What was the reason for not just coming up with new advanced tech for P-P, instead of adding different things?

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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:36 pm

TiaMaster wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:With our Core Earth tech practically getting into the range of the old Nippon Tech...uh...Tech... we needed something to differentiate Pan-Pacfica. Currently 'advanced' tech is more likely to be biological in nature.

As for psionics, that came out of attaching psionic power to the Social axiom.


Okay, but you could have played it where it was POSSIBLE for psionics to exist, but they didn't yet. Just seems so...huge a system to put in for what seems like no reason.

What was the reason for not just coming up with new advanced tech for P-P, instead of adding different things?


Not to speak for the designers, but this has actually been discussed by them somewhere on these forums already (though I can't find it at the moment). Or maybe I'm imagining that. But anyway, I believe another way to put it is that one reason to go with tech that is in a different direction from the way technology is advancing in the real world is to give Torg Eternity some longevity with regard to "advanced tech" realms. Shortly after oTorg was released, the technology listed in the Nippon Tech realm was laughably out of date, with 64MB RAM laptops or something similar. By going in a more "Sci-Fi" direction (biotech) and psionics, they sort of future proofed Pan Pacifica, as real world technology isn't likely to produce psionic mutants and a jiangshi apocalypse is unlikely. If they simply predicted what technology would be like in Core Earth in another 20 years, the setting's shelf life wouldn't be as long, and they run the risk of technology advancing faster than their predictions.

Also, by adding "science run amok" as one of the themes of the realm, it allows for more types of adventures; part of the change of the realm was to make it less focused on Japan and corporate takeovers, and more broadly set in Asia, which sort of opens up a lot of themes from those cultures and so it broadens the setting's themes.

I suspect there were other reasons...perhaps there are some Resident Evil, Walking Dead, and anime fans on the team. :)

I'm not sure I dig the new Pan-Pacifica yet, but I can see the merits of it. I'm planning to keep the realm a secret from the player characters and general populace for a long while and I'll have to give the rulebook a read before I decide whether it's something I want to invest a lot of time developing adventures for. I typically played Kanawa as a major meddler in other realms more than a direct threat, and probably will continue that aspect of it, and as I love Hong Kong that will have to be a destination at some point.
"That old chestnut?"

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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:37 pm

TiaMaster wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Unfortunately I'm not in charge of what gets revealed and when. Trust me when I say we are well aware of the demand for this.


Thats fine for most things, but this will most likely require much time to research and get proficient with whomever you partner with. Giving us some info on where or what to study would come in handy come T-day.



Yes, I agree, but we're doing that. There's stuff going on behind the scenes.


TorgHacker wrote:We'll add stuff if we think it's fun and allows us to encourage a thematic style of play. I'm not saying that we're going to use Orrorsh's old Perseverance mechanic, but that's the sort of thing we might see in the future. But we won't be introducing new skills or new systems like the old pulp powers or Martial Arts were like.

A lot of the mechanical heft will be supported by more Perks.


Say it isn't so. New skills and new systems are exactly why I like sourcebooks. Unless you are saying you can cover just as much ground with, say, something like oTorg's martial arts by adding new Perks?

If new Perks is a thing, why isn't new skills?



Perks are very good at dealing with things like Martial Arts. But the main reason that we're doing the sourcebooks the way we are is that we want people to want them for the cool stuff they have in there, not because they feel it's necessary to even play the game, which was a common complaint about Original Torg.


Okay, but you could have played it where it was POSSIBLE for psionics to exist, but they didn't yet. Just seems so...huge a system to put in for what seems like no reason.

What was the reason for not just coming up with new advanced tech for P-P, instead of adding different things?


We could have done a lot of things differently. Sometimes it's because one of the designers felt it'd be cool to do. Psionics isn't getting a lot of emphasis in the core book as far as Pan-Pacifica goes. It's there, but isolated. It's Tharkold that has the widespread psionic usage. However, we wanted psionics to be just as big of a deal as miracles and spells, and we couldn't really do that with just having Tharkold be the 'psionic' realm.

Adding psionics to Pan-Pacifica wasn't a large effort. Storywise they'll get more emphasis in the cosm sourcebook.

There's no question that Pan-Pacifica is one of the realms that has seen the biggest changes.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

utsukushi
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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby utsukushi » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm

It needed it. Nippon Tech was awesome and Kanawa has always been my favorite High Lord, but it was very much a product of its time, and not all in good ways.

But the main reason that we're doing the sourcebooks the way we are is that we want people to want them for the cool stuff they have in there, not because they feel it's necessary to even play the game, which was a common complaint about Original Torg.

Yeah, I don't know how anybody got through a game without the rules on stock market manipulation! Glad to hear that's all moved to the core book now... <grin>

I've already wax rhapsodic on how much I loved oTorg's sub-systems - and honestly, while I *had* all the Realm books (of course), I generally *didn't* think they were necessary to have for those systems. I mean, we've talked about how little used the Business mechanics were. Designing spells and gadgets were awesome systems and obviously more useful - but also not *necessary* to play the game. ...Indeed, offhand I can't think of a game that's included spell design mechanics in the core-- well, OK, Ars Magica, but that *IS* the game. I can't think of any a game not totally focused on playing mages that included making up your own spells in the core rules, that's always supplemental. And Torg's supplemental systems were all right on that level.

That said, though, I really like this point, and for whatever some random Internet person's opinion is worth, I absolutely think you made the right call. It took me a little time to adjust to the idea, but Torg *was* overcomplicated. Awesomely, perhaps, but also unnecessarily. I'm just really hoping you're managing to make the different pieces feel *different*, and not, as I've said before, the same thing with a few different adjectives. From everything I've read, though, the team that worked on this actually did love Torg, and for the same reasons the rest of us did, which, when I actually say it, I realize shouldn't be surprising. I know the 4th Edition Earthdawn (the other love of my life) team made a lot of changes I wouldn't have, but they worked out really well, and it was for exactly that reason: They loved the game for the right reasons. To me, that's the thing to look for in a game development team.

You totally blew me away with your answer on the removal-of-atheism-as-a-Faith, so I'm finding myself not just "hopeful", but remarkably confident that I'll be happy with the thought given to even bigger changes, even if I'm sure in something with this many moving pieces, I will find a good handful that I'll say, "Ooh, I wouldn't have done it like that."

As to being able to play online... I'm nervous about this one, too, just because it's so important. I'm In on the Kickstarter already, but that was after a long talk at home about, "Yeah, they said so, but.. nostalgia aside, this is a lot of money for something I might not be able to use". I really, really can't imagine I was the only one on the fence for only that reason. It's a big reason.

So... I know it's not up to you, and you're sounding kind of frustrated and I don't mean to push that, but if you guys are talking about what to reveal to really push this last week on the Kickstarter, I'd really, really recommend this as something to think about.

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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:46 pm

TiaMaster wrote:If new Perks is a thing, why isn't new skills?


I'm not sure why you would want this. When new skills get introduced in sourcebooks, it's very much an admission that the core rules are incomplete. I don't want that in a game. It was pretty common in the '80s and '90s as game designers were finding their way. AD&D introduced nonweapon proficiencies in the Wilderness and Dungeoneering Handbooks years after the game was released. Then they became canon in AD&D 2e. GURPS was meant to be generic, so it had the base skills and introduced genre-specific skills in their sourcebooks. And Torg started off with several skills and eventually realized that other skills were missing, so they were added in the sourcebooks. I'd rather have a complete rule book.

And if the goal is indeed to cut down on the number of skills, then releasing new skills in cosm books would defeat that purpose. The designers have seen all of the sourcebooks in oTorg. Unlike the fledgling designers of the '80s and '90s, these people have decades of game research under their belts and are publishing a known material. In fact, they shouldn't want to publish new skills, and we shouldn't even be wanting that.

Now, new Perks, Spells, Miracles, etc., I'm on board with. I would rather see these things in the core book, but I imagine that the book will be meaty enough as it is without these extras. I'll just keep an eye out for the new additions.

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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:34 pm

I think the fear is that without new skills the magic system of say Aysle won't feel different from Orrorsh, and will end up just a list of spells, but I don't think that will be the case because of the perks. So instead of a different magic system for each, you get the same basic system (though I heard Nile Empire may be a little different) and perks like the ones in Orrorsh that corrupt you provide the realm specific flavor. For things like martial arts, I would expect more Prowess perks, and maybe some Psionic ones for the wire-fu style abilities.

To put it another way, if you think of perks as small packages of rules, then what they're doing is fine, because the perks take the place of new skills. Like the cards, perks are exception based rules, so you can do almost anything with them; but you can pack a lot of text into a single perk. So perks can change game play and the narrative as much as new skills, but you can ignore the ones you're not using instead of being forced to learn a whole new system for each cosm, and instead of redesigning all the PC's from that cosm all at once using new systems, you can just swap some perks, maybe over time. Like skills, you can get more perks as you progress, so it's really the same thing, just a bit more granular and modular. Don't like a particular perk? Toss it or fix it, but no need to learn an entire new system first before you can figure out that a piece of it is a problem.

I do see a need for new systems in each cosm book though, I don't think perks can do the job of getting the unique flavor of each of these realms alone. The perseverance system in Orrorsh for making horrors scary had some merit (though it was clunky and could be toned down) and I just can't imagine Aysle without a spell design system that makes me feel like a wizard, and rules for casting on the fly (again, it could be trimmed down).

But there were a lot of systems like the martial arts training and business rules in Nippon Tech, or a lot of the weird science construction rules that I just don't care about much (I know some people do, but I don't think I'm in the minority), and I'm glad they're trimming the fat. Still, one of the strengths of Torg is that the theme of each genre was backed up with game mechanics, so I would be disappointed if the cosm books were all fluff and spell/equipment/monster/perk lists, and no new crunchy systems to further reinforce that cosm's genre.
"That old chestnut?"

James Garr

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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby TiaMaster » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:26 pm

Kuildeous wrote:In fact, they shouldn't want to publish new skills, and we shouldn't even be wanting that.


You should only speak for yourself. My campaigners were all about skills.

I totally understand the bit about covering everything thats needed by using Perks, but Perks aren't Skills, and I believe they are just as important.

Kuildeous
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Re: Long Distance TORGE and More

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:49 pm

TiaMaster wrote:I totally understand the bit about covering everything thats needed by using Perks, but Perks aren't Skills, and I believe they are just as important.


So would you be cool with the core rulebook not including computer usage just so it can be introduced in a sourcebook? Beast riding? That would be an incomplete rulebook. Why ask for new skills in the cosm books that could be included in the core book?

I won't speak for you, but you're the only person I've seen who actually wants skills to be introduced in cosm books instead of the core rulebook.


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