getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

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Rabbitball
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:05 pm

Kuildeous wrote:There were ways to get these things for free in oTorg. No more, it seems.


The obvious exception being Darkness Perks... :D
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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TiaMaster
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:49 pm

I can't believe some are on board with "NO. Not in the beginning of the war."

I should caveat that with 'the beginning of the war' as in up to the first year. Of course you can't cross contaminate when starting out, but a year later or even six months should have rules for it.

I am not going to tell my players next summer that they CAN'T have cyberware because, well, no reason.

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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby Jim » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:55 pm

@Tia Master,

I think the reasons for not mixing the available perks and options at the beginning of the game are pretty valid. I'm not going to into lecture mode however, unless you're really interested.

You're describing a problem. The pace at which your group plays could outstrip the release schedule that Ulisses has established. I think we can all be sympathetic with that. Yet, the rule about not mixing perks and abilities didn't cause that problem. The rule isn't wrongbad or crazy because it might take a long time for Ulisses to get to Year Two.

And that's a perfectly good reason for you to set that rule aside for your group. The rule is going to only become more important however, as more books and character options come out. It's not like they can print in the rules "ignore this rule if your GM is an early adopter." (A physical print run is forever.) GMs, like you, kinda have to make that decision for themselves. You should absolutely feel empowered to do so.

For what its worth, I'm sure we will all get impatient for new material at some point. Ulissess has to walk a line to release quality material as quickly as possible while not burning out their writers or over-extending themselves. Plus they have Fading Suns, Dark Eye, and other product lines, and many of the guys work on those as well.

Perhaps if the product line is successful enough, they can expand their stable of writers.

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TiaMaster
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:47 pm

Jim wrote:@Tia Master,

I think the reasons for not mixing the available perks and options at the beginning of the game are pretty valid. I'm not going to into lecture mode however, unless you're really interested.


That completely depends on your definition of beginning.

Jim wrote:You're describing a problem. The pace at which your group plays could outstrip the release schedule that Ulisses has established. I think we can all be sympathetic with that. Yet, the rule about not mixing perks and abilities didn't cause that problem. The rule isn't wrongbad or crazy because it might take a long time for Ulisses to get to Year Two.

And that's a perfectly good reason for you to set that rule aside for your group. The rule is going to only become more important however, as more books and character options come out. It's not like they can print in the rules "ignore this rule if your GM is an early adopter." (A physical print run is forever.) GMs, like you, kinda have to make that decision for themselves. You should absolutely feel empowered to do so.


I have never had a problem.
I am not sure how allowing an elf who lost his eye a cybernetic one could "outstrip the release schedule". This would most likely be after the CP sourcebook comes out...
I am also not sure which rule you are referring to when you say I think it's wrongbad. Do you mean a restriction on Perks? There is no rule so far that you can't use other Perks 'until year two'.

I'm aware of being able to make rules.

Jim wrote:For what its worth, I'm sure we will all get impatient for new material at some point. Ulissess has to walk a line to release quality material as quickly as possible while not burning out their writers or over-extending themselves. Plus they have Fading Suns, Dark Eye, and other product lines, and many of the guys work on those as well.

Perhaps if the product line is successful enough, they can expand their stable of writers.


I'm confused as to where my comments led to being accusatory of US that they are not fast enough, or don't have enough employees to be efficient.

As for being impatient, you SHOULD be impatient right now, and if you are not, then you aren't excited enough.

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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby Jim » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:29 pm

TiaMaster wrote:I'm confused as to where my comments led to being accusatory of US that they are not fast enough, or don't have enough employees to be efficient.


Whoa.

I didn't think you were being accusatory towards US at all. I did think you sounded frustrated, but I didn't attribute that towards anything other than you feel that people should be able to buy perks from other cosms sooner than later. If you're not frustrated, my apologies.

TiaMaster wrote:I can't believe some are on board with "NO. Not in the beginning of the war.


This is a strongly worded statement. And because you posted it with a note of incredulous disbelief, I thought you wanted someone to reply. My intent was to be both empathetic and sympathetic. Sorry if I came across as so hostile. I'm saddened and taken aback by your reply.


TiaMaster wrote:I am not going to tell my players next summer that they CAN'T have cyberware because, well, no reason.


Again, strong words. I interpreted it as frustration that other posters said they were going to wait until Year Two. A decision that you disagree with and is made for "no reason."

Everything I said about the schedule was just in relation to how long it will take for new material is available. Cyber eyes are probably in the Core Rule Book. No reason for your poor half-elf elf to wait at all.

I'm going to step away now. I wish you the best.

@ All - I'm gonna take a break from the forums, except for the Cyberpapacy thread (i'd like to at least finish that conversation).

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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:02 pm

To be clear, we don't really care much what you do with the rules once they're out. They're your games, go to it.

However, I might get my hackles up (and they're not right now), if there's some implication that we're doing it 'just because' and not having a reasoning behind it. A person may disagree with that reasoning, but what is good for one group may not be appropriate for a large number of groups, which is what we do have to keep in mind.

A good chunk of the reason for not allowing cross Cosm Perks is to keep what makes each cosm special _special_. For instance, if you had any character from any cosm taking Reality Perks, then there's not much reason to be a Core Earth character again. Now, I realize that one area that's problematic is Cyberware, but I think that as we add options for all cosms, that restriction probably will be relaxed.

Additionally, without the restriction, it's possible that you have a character from one cosm being better at something that your cosm does just because of attributes or skills.

Another way to look at it is that the different cosms are a lot like classes. And we're not introducing multi-classing rules at the start, but later on we probably will allow a bit of a mixing going on, but we need to make sure the general landscape of the different Perks before we do that. Otherwise you start having issues with surprising combos messing up the balance in the system.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TiaMaster
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:48 pm

TorgHacker wrote:A good chunk of the reason for not allowing cross Cosm Perks is to keep what makes each cosm special _special_. For instance, if you had any character from any cosm taking Reality Perks, then there's not much reason to be a Core Earth character again. Now, I realize that one area that's problematic is Cyberware, but I think that as we add options for all cosms, that restriction probably will be relaxed.

Additionally, without the restriction, it's possible that you have a character from one cosm being better at something that your cosm does just because of attributes or skills.


First bold: I don't see how you can say that. The fact that it's possible for someone out there to have those Perks is EXACTLY why a character would work towards that. Core Earthers can START OUT that way and bypass having to die, or become The High Lord of Earth to get that ability. How is that not special?

Second: I don't understand how that very thing is not encouraged, let alone frowned upon. Wouldn't my Cyberpriest who happens to have a 10 Spirit and 4 reality adds of course have affinity for manipulation of Reality? It took ALOT of XP to get my Reality to a freakin 14, and (I'm assuming) alot more to purchase a Perk!

You said you will not be introducing different systems and rules later on. Well, this is one of those things that needs a ruling, and I don't think that "You just can't do it because it would upset the balance." is gonna work. (at least for me, of course)
I just think its WAY too big of a...thing to just basically rely on house rules for.

I'm fully aware that I can do whatever I want with TORGE. Thats not my point, I just think in this instance you should go ahead and and at least SUGGEST a way that people can cross-Perk at some point before releasing a new Supplement To The Rules in some Infiniverse TWO YEARS from now.
I'm not being impatient, I'm being realistic - Players are gonna want Cyberware or spells or sumthin sometime in the near future.

Just trying to avoid having to tell my players they can't do something this OBVIOUS for the reasons given so far. My players (you CAN'T tell me that you guyzes players are NOT going ask) will want to immediately look for adventures and situations where they can acquire something that TORGs universe just begs for.

Keeping each cosm special is EXACTLY what motivates players to want to do something like this. Its SPECIAL to be the character not from the CP who has a cybertetic eye. Its special for a Core Earther to have a mystical tattoo that casts detect magic. I'm not talking about cybernetic ninja werewolves here - I am talking about SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES. If I play every week for 6 months to a year, I want something MORE than just my Trademark Weapon.

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TorgHacker
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:22 pm

I don't have an answer you'll be happy with. Sorry.

I gave you the reasoning we have for doing it the way we did, and we had lots of internal debate about it, and that reasoning obviously is not acceptable to you.

There's not much I can do about that to say again that you can do whatever you want with your game once it's out. It's your game, you can change whatever rule you want to change.

But the rules are locked, the PDFs are being finalized, and they'll be out in the world next week.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TiaMaster
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby TiaMaster » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:31 pm

I am beginning to think my posts are coming across as argumentative or something. They're not, this is a discussion board...I suppose that just me being shorthand.

EDIT: I think after rereading, I am being obtuse about something - are you saying that there IS indeed a rule in the Corebook that says No Cross Realm Perks? I thought there was no 'hard n fast' rule yet.
Last edited by TiaMaster on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim
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Re: getting rid of the silly aspects of Torg

Postby Jim » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:47 pm

TiaMaster wrote:EDIT: I think after rereading, I am being obtuse about something - are you saying that there IS indeed a rule in the Corebook that says No Cross Realm Perks?


(I know I said I wouldn't, but.. here goes...)

Yes.

So when you said you couldn't believe people were on board with this rule, those people were actually saying that they accept the justification for why the rule was put in place.


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