The Living Land Preview #1

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Gargoyle
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Gargoyle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 am

sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


Tribes can be pretty big. The organization is still very simple.
"That old chestnut?"

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:09 am

sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


Native ords can create contradictions. So maybe 20% of them disconnected trying to create a four-case contradiction but the rest were still enough to make the roll?

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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby sandchigger » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:11 am

Gargoyle wrote:
sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


Tribes can be pretty big. The organization is still very simple.


No, not using the social axiom as presented, they really can't. They do not have the ability to organize over a large area.

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Kuildeous
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 am

sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


It all depends on how the army is organized. Modern armies are built on the concept of strengthening the nation even if you can't see it directly, and that is above LL's social axiom.

However, what is definitely within LL's social axiom is the concept of, "You will follow me, or I will tear out your spleen. Here's a demonstration on someone who displeased me. You're not going to displease me, are you? Good. Now go kill some humans!"

Although, if he's leading edeinos to demonstrate incredible spiritual power, he may have gathered them for a ritual. In that case, it's as simple as whipping them up into a spiritual frenzy as everyone feels Lanala. He just feeds off that faith and channels it. Enrapturing followers with religion doesn't need much of a Social axiom.
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Gargoyle
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Gargoyle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:30 am

sandchigger wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:
sandchigger wrote:
How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


Tribes can be pretty big. The organization is still very simple.


No, not using the social axiom as presented, they really can't. They do not have the ability to organize over a large area.


Yes, they really can for several reasons:

1) The social axiom does support it.

Social 7: "Commerce and differentiation of labor develop. Specialized roles like tradesmen, soldiers, and slaves are supported."
So armies are supported...just not "standing armies" as that would be Social 8. And tribes can be large. It's just that there isn't a bureaucracy to facilitate it.

2) The very high spirit axiom compensates for the low social axiom. Miracles can whip edeinos into a fanatical fury and can improve communications and control beyond what we can even do with high Technology sometimes.

3) Baruk Kaah and Rec Pakken are providing leadership way beyond what is normally possible. A High Lord and Darkness Device by definition break the rules.

4) The fiction is better for it. I think without the ability to have mass armies of edeinos, some interesting scenes are not possible. This is really the most important reason for the rationalization.

I think it's important to consider the low Social axiom though. They may be able to mount massive offenses now and then, but they should be easily routed when faced with serious opposition, and shouldn't be able to coordinate well all the time. Massive casualties should be the norm, reducing their efficiency over the long term. They shouldn't have a command structure beyond the Saar and his lieutenants. They shouldn't have any long term plans, nothing further in the future than "tomorrow" for instance (though BK can of course break that rule personally). But I disagree that they can't have an army and can't organize somewhat over a large area, it's just not going to be like a modern Core Earth army. It's going to be weird and chaotic.
"That old chestnut?"

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Greymarch2000
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Greymarch2000 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:34 am

"Lanala says we go!"

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TorgHacker
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:04 am

sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?


At Social 5, tribal groups and alliances form. These alliances are the clans. At Social 6, you can get communities as large as villages.

At Social 8, which is contradictory in the Living Land, you get to have city-states.

It's not explicit but at Social 7 you'd have the capacity to have towns. So you can have large groups being coordinated at the Living Land's Social Axiom.
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Staffan
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Staffan » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:09 pm

sandchigger wrote:
Baruk Kaah, demonstrating the incredible spiritual power at his command, led a huge congregation of edeinos...


How?

The social axiom of the Living Land does not allow for groups larger than a tribe.

How does any LL inhabitant even conceive of an army, much less have the ability to organize one?

I don't see the Living Land as having armies. They have hordes.

You can get a whole bunch of edeinos to gather in one place for one purpose, at least for a short time. What you can't do on that large a scale is to organize things. You wouldn't be able to designate some troops to create siege weaponry (or siege miracles, or ride siege-breaker dinos), some to handle supplies, and so on. This might be something individual tribes can manage on a lower level, but there wouldn't be any horde-wide coordination of such things. Fortunately, for the edeinos, Lanala is a generous deity who provides bountiful food. You also generally wouldn't be able to use tactics far beyond "go there and fight" - no outflanking maneuvers and such.

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Exploring the Storm
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby Exploring the Storm » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:36 pm

I think the best way to look at this in a historical context is to compare the Edienos tribes to early Native American culture and social interaction between them. Although the majority of tribes were independent of one another they traded and shared with each other as well as formed 'nations.' The Iroquois, for example, consisted of five tribes (the Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora) that formed a 'confederacy' that could and would unite when the occasion warranted it, but would then return to their own internal management once the task was complete. In addition, this union was not always peaceful and disagreements did arise between these treaties and sometimes the 'nation' would resolve these matters with a council of representatives of each allied member.

My point is that yes, the social axiom (7) reinforces the independent tribal structure between the various communities but they are also on the cusp of being able to form sovereign independent territories (8). By the definitions/guidelines provided above this would, in essence, be right where the Edeinos are at regarding uniting independent nations for short periods of time to achieve benefits for all the tribes involved.

Think of them as tribal 'nations' and not city-state nations.

Just my interpretation, hope this helps.

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MalicWanderer
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Re: The Living Land Preview #1

Postby MalicWanderer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:45 pm

Exploring the Storm wrote:The Iroquois, for example, consisted of five tribes (the Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora)...

Sorry to nitpick, but that list is six tribes long.

Otherwise I agree with all those posting about large but simple organization. I particularly like the horde example.


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