God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

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Gargoyle
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Re: God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
fougerec wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:While the adventures I run are fairly linear, I give my players a choice of two to four missions every month. Definitely not a sandbox, but it does help with the player agency.


I did that with Shadowrun, unfortunately I found that with my group if I give them X missions they'll take X+1 hours to decide what to do :(


Analysis paralysis is certainly a thing.


Yeah, but sometimes the discussions about which mission to take are also entertaining. If they aren't, or if they drag too long, that's what a GM is there for. We move the game along. :)

I always run D&D in a sandbox btw. It lends itself to that. And it's the same thing. If they want to piddle around and not decide which way to go, I bring things to them. A Gm's number one job is to keep the game moving, otherwise you lose players to netflix, etc.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

fuldry
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Re: God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

Postby fuldry » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:46 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Let's get into the weeds a bit and give a timely example. I'm finishing up the first Act of the Relics of Power adventure. As it stands, it is 1,000 words more than the longest Act by page count of any adventure we've published. I probably actually need to pare it down. But there really isn't much I _can_ pare down.

Page count has a huge huge huge HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE impact on what published adventures can and can't do. I've got to fit the entire Relics of Power adventure in 110 pages...and that's going to involve 7 acts. Maaaaaaaaaybe we can get away with making the book bigger, but for a variety of reasons my understanding is we don't want to do that. It's not going to enough to do 220 pages though, so we can't split it into two books.

And then you get into cost issues...all that content has to be paid for in additional writing, editing, printing...so the question is, do you spend resources on something that's not going to get used? Or do you go with what the author thinks is a likely way to go and leave it up to the GM if the players go off script?



Why would you pare down ? Kickstarter is our friend. Think about Cthulhu wars… Sandy Petersen decided to try and ran his "last" project before retiring. He went all-in disregarding economics entirely. He raised more than 1 million $.

If you feel the book must run to 220 pages, go for it. Expand the adventure, take it to new directions. And then, present it as it is : a mega adventure that is going to get it's own Kickstarter. Price it as it should be, and then you got your budget for Art.

I Don't need ALL TORG kickstarters to be setting books. I'd gladly pay for a single mega adventure. Even if it's 50 or 100 $. MAke it huge, make it a mega-budget movie !

TorgHacker wrote:I think one of the features of a true sandbox type game is that it all takes place in one location. So you can set out the setting, and the location, and then get into the weeds of who's there and who does what and what impacts this and that.


Well, Storm King thunder made the settings the entire sword coast. It did not work well, IMO, but that was the basic idea.

TorgHacker wrote:Anyway, it's just not a simple case of 'give more options'. It's 'give more options + take away content'. You have to make choices on what goes in.


Unless you kickstart the s*t out of it. You start the kickstart at 110 pages, and then the strech goals are extra pages, only extra content, Nothing more, Nothing less.

Then, the add-ons are the real extras : tokens, cards, maps, etc. You know the costs to make a map, make tokens, as you tried it already. Thus you can price those add-ons properly. If there is too many and the costs are really lower than planned, it's great, it makes more margin for you !

Kickstart IS a wonderful media for that, let US tell you what we want. If the Kickstarter is sufficiently successful, you end up with a HUGE budget and no content has to be left out, no pages have to be sacrificed.

François

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TorgHacker
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Re: God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:32 pm

fuldry wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Let's get into the weeds a bit and give a timely example. I'm finishing up the first Act of the Relics of Power adventure. As it stands, it is 1,000 words more than the longest Act by page count of any adventure we've published. I probably actually need to pare it down. But there really isn't much I _can_ pare down.

Page count has a huge huge huge HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE impact on what published adventures can and can't do. I've got to fit the entire Relics of Power adventure in 110 pages...and that's going to involve 7 acts. Maaaaaaaaaybe we can get away with making the book bigger, but for a variety of reasons my understanding is we don't want to do that. It's not going to enough to do 220 pages though, so we can't split it into two books.

And then you get into cost issues...all that content has to be paid for in additional writing, editing, printing...so the question is, do you spend resources on something that's not going to get used? Or do you go with what the author thinks is a likely way to go and leave it up to the GM if the players go off script?



Why would you pare down ? Kickstarter is our friend. Think about Cthulhu wars… Sandy Petersen decided to try and ran his "last" project before retiring. He went all-in disregarding economics entirely. He raised more than 1 million $.

If you feel the book must run to 220 pages, go for it. Expand the adventure, take it to new directions. And then, present it as it is : a mega adventure that is going to get it's own Kickstarter. Price it as it should be, and then you got your budget for Art.

...


Unless you kickstart the s*t out of it. You start the kickstart at 110 pages, and then the strech goals are extra pages, only extra content, Nothing more, Nothing less.

Then, the add-ons are the real extras : tokens, cards, maps, etc. You know the costs to make a map, make tokens, as you tried it already. Thus you can price those add-ons properly. If there is too many and the costs are really lower than planned, it's great, it makes more margin for you !

Kickstart IS a wonderful media for that, let US tell you what we want. If the Kickstarter is sufficiently successful, you end up with a HUGE budget and no content has to be left out, no pages have to be sacrificed.

François



That won't be the way it comes. The decisions on format are pretty much already done. I'm not going to go into everything on that, but we won't be doing a single Kickstarter for this. It'll be an add-on hardcover, very likely the same size as the other book. Additionally, the cost for the writing, editing, and artwork is from _this_ Kickstarter, not a future one. They're stretch goals for this Kickstarter.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

fuldry
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

Postby fuldry » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:49 pm

TorgHacker wrote:That won't be the way it comes. The decisions on format are pretty much already done. I'm not going to go into everything on that, but we won't be doing a single Kickstarter for this. It'll be an add-on hardcover, very likely the same size as the other book. Additionally, the cost for the writing, editing, and artwork is from _this_ Kickstarter, not a future one. They're stretch goals for this Kickstarter.


OK, too bad, or not, not my decision, and I'm happy anyway however it happens. I was just trying to present things with another point of view :) And of course, costs need to be covered BY the Kickstarter generating them, otherwise it does not make sense.

Where I'm really happy is the speed you manage to deliver, even if the kickstarters are usually late, you still produce a lot of books, and that's a huge accomplishment in itself. Just there, I'll grab the highest reasonable level of backing I can (no Delphi council/vigilante for me, that's just too expensive ;) )

Keep up the work, and I'll keep throwing money your way :P Even if I disagree with some choices, they are not mine to make and I'll support the line.

François

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TorgHacker
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Re: God Box Review - FULL OF SPOILERS

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:56 pm

fuldry wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:That won't be the way it comes. The decisions on format are pretty much already done. I'm not going to go into everything on that, but we won't be doing a single Kickstarter for this. It'll be an add-on hardcover, very likely the same size as the other book. Additionally, the cost for the writing, editing, and artwork is from _this_ Kickstarter, not a future one. They're stretch goals for this Kickstarter.


OK, too bad, or not, not my decision, and I'm happy anyway however it happens. I was just trying to present things with another point of view :) And of course, costs need to be covered BY the Kickstarter generating them, otherwise it does not make sense.

Where I'm really happy is the speed you manage to deliver, even if the kickstarters are usually late, you still produce a lot of books, and that's a huge accomplishment in itself. Just there, I'll grab the highest reasonable level of backing I can (no Delphi council/vigilante for me, that's just too expensive ;) )

Keep up the work, and I'll keep throwing money your way :P Even if I disagree with some choices, they are not mine to make and I'll support the line.

François


Yup, I'm just not the one who even remotely makes those decisions. That's like, three levels up from me. :-)
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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