Large Groups and Possiblities

Select your group size and how you feel the Possibility economy is.

Poll runs till Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 pm

6 players (Too many Possibilities)
3
38%
6 players (Possibilities are just right)
1
13%
6 players (Often run out of Possibilities)
1
13%
7+ players (Too many Possibilities)
3
38%
7+ players (Possibilities are just right)
0
No votes
7+ players (Often run out of Possibilities)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 8

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TorgHacker
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Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:29 pm

This one is for the larger groups.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

ZorValachan
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby ZorValachan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:22 pm

7 players. Almost all Cosm Cards with encounters played immediately. End of Cosm card encounters average of 7 Possibilities (after spending in the scene). Add 1-2 for Glories played. Primal instincts played. Half the players decided to accept those. Ending average 10 Possibilties.

Staffan
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby Staffan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:28 pm

My answer is extremely tentative, because so far I only have three short sessions of TORG: Eternity under my belt, and we're halfway through the Living Land day 1 adventure. My group is somewhat volatile - last night when everyone was there there were a total of 8 of us (so I had to make up a seventh character). But a lot of the time some players are gone due to life stuff, so normally it's a bit smaller than that. My impression there was that:

1. Seven players is too many, it didn't really give people enough space. It was also difficult to keep track of everything that was going on.

2. Seven players means almost the entire cosm deck is in play (particularly since one played the Destiny card that gave them an extra cosm card...). Many of those give possibilities, which meant that the number of possibilities exploded. We played through the gotak fight, and the PCs talked their way past the Law Tribe, and didn't get to the hospital... but at this point in the act, most PCs were actually ahead on possibilities.

Last week we only had five players (I as the GM and four others), and things went a lot smoother. The players really seemed to get into the spirit of setting up/knocking down the Big Bad mosasaurus - I think if we had had all eight there then, things would have been a lot more complicated.

But as I said, this is extremely tentative because of limited experience.

ZorValachan
Posts: 88
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby ZorValachan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:38 pm

Clarification. 7-players and me as GM for my post above.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:30 pm

Had a good chat with Darrell about a bunch of things. One of the things we discussed was adjusting some things dependent on group size. These will appear in print in a future product, but we'll run them by you guys first to see if the proposed solutions actually work.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

ZorValachan
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:59 am

Thank you. Your concern and dedication to TE is greatly appreciated.

ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:38 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Had a good chat with Darrell about a bunch of things. One of the things we discussed was adjusting some things dependent on group size. These will appear in print in a future product, but we'll run them by you guys first to see if the proposed solutions actually work.


This isn't so much a criticism as an observation, but in my old age I find the difference in playtesting philosophies between boardgaming and tabletop RPG gaming increasingly weird.

Nobody would ever release a boardgame "for 3-8 players", and then after release realise they never actually playtested it with three players, or eight players, and that they have no real idea how the core mechanics would work out in such a game. At the very least someone would have sat down for an hour or two and played out a few mock games solitaire to get a general feel for how it would work out.

Or if a scenario says "fight twice as many foozles as PCs plus a Bandersnatch", someone would have played that scenario out systematically with two PCs, then with three, then with four and so on.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby Gargoyle » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:07 pm

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Had a good chat with Darrell about a bunch of things. One of the things we discussed was adjusting some things dependent on group size. These will appear in print in a future product, but we'll run them by you guys first to see if the proposed solutions actually work.


This isn't so much a criticism as an observation, but in my old age I find the difference in playtesting philosophies between boardgaming and tabletop RPG gaming increasingly weird.

Nobody would ever release a boardgame "for 3-8 players", and then after release realise they never actually playtested it with three players, or eight players, and that they have no real idea how the core mechanics would work out in such a game. At the very least someone would have sat down for an hour or two and played out a few mock games solitaire to get a general feel for how it would work out.

Or if a scenario says "fight twice as many foozles as PCs plus a Bandersnatch", someone would have played that scenario out systematically with two PCs, then with three, then with four and so on.


This isn't so much an apology for the game not working optimally for larger or smaller groups, I think it's something they made mistakes on... but also just an observation: RPGs are probably harder to scale than most boardgames. Torg is probably harder to design and scale than most RPGs.
"That old chestnut?"

James Garr

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TorgHacker
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:20 pm

It's a matter of the nature of the product and resources.

RPGs are much more complicated than board games. Boardgames have a very narrow set of rules, are easy to learn, and can be played repeatedly in short amounts of time (for most games anyway...Twilight Imperium...looking at you). In RPGs there's a lot more moving parts, and there's a variety of skill levels, and a variety of groups.

There's only so many iterations you can do at once, and RPGs are never marketed as only being for "4-6 players" or what have you. (okay maybe not never, if there's some RPG that does have that on the box). But still, most, if not all, RPGs have a sweet spot for the number of players. Even if there was the time to test for 3 or less, or 7 or more players, the amount of groups that are actually like that who buy the product and play it is small. And even if you did playtest it with extreme group sizes, unless you get a large enough sample size, if there are problems you don't actually know if it's a consistent problem or not.

Now, one may then reply, "But D&D did a massive public playtest for two years". Yes they did. But they had the resources to do that. They were able to sell product related to D&D over that period, and they had the resources to analyze the playtest data. It's simply not reasonable for small companies to do that amount of playtesting.

We thought that scaling the amount of foes by the amount of people would be enough but for a subset of groups, obviously that wasn't the case, and we'll account for it.

But there's very good reasons why RPGs aren't playtested like boardgames are.
Dean Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Impra
Posts: 19
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Re: Large Groups and Possiblities

Postby Impra » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:47 am

Our Group 6 players me as GM did 6 sessions currently the first 3 day1 adventures

The first LL adventure was a possie and card feast after having most of the "good" cards in the players hands/pool ( 24/60)
and recycling through the masterplan inspire etc loop to inflate possies and cards.

For this reason i increased the destiny deck to achieve the old size of 156 cards trying to have nearly the same chances of drawing the gamechanger cards like rally masterplan etc. Did remove the disliked subplot cards which never worked but included Escape and my favorite Monologue.

With this the changes most players having both Hero and Drama in Hand / pool with 60 card deck and therefore have upped almost every roll, the possies felt far more worth and players settled with dice rolls of e.g. 14 not playing a possie. Still some heroic moves but not the superheroes they were not supposed to be as day 1 fresh storm knights.


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