House Rules

Doomweber
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Re: House Rules

Postby Doomweber » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:09 pm

Just a query guys. So we are talking about shooting into Melendez, when I thought, "Hey, can't you use a pistol in Melee?" So, that begs the question, does that shoot a random combatant?

My thought is no, you are close enough that it wouldn't hit someone you aren't shooting at, but I could see how the argument could be made. Also, I am going to reread the combat section again for info about pistols, but I'd love to hear thoughts. Also, I do believe that, while melee-centric fighters might be able to dish out more damage, the drawback of being IN combat, and thus, taking more damage, equal out that advantage.

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: House Rules

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:39 pm

Core Rules p122 says "Characters in close combat can’t fire bows, rifles, or other long arms at the foes they’re engaged with, but they may fire pistols or other small weapons. The attack test is rolled normally, using fire combat, missile weapons, or energy weapons as appropriate. The defender must resist with his melee weapons (if armed) or unarmed combat (if not). This represents the target’s ability to deflect or interfere with the attacker’s firing hand. Dodge only applies at range."

Core Rules p123 says "Firing into a swirling melee where combatants are moving around and struggling for advantage is extremely dangerous if the attacker has allies in the fight. The attack test is rolled as usual, but if the final die total is odd, a random participant in the melee is affected. (Include the original target when determining who’s hit.) Compare the attack total to the selected target’s dodge to see if it’s hit and apply damage normally."

It seems clear that both RAI and RAW are that firing into melee risks hitting the wrong target but firing within melee uses the rules on p122.

Doomweber
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Re: House Rules

Postby Doomweber » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:13 pm

That's how I read it. Just wanted others views.

Savioronedge
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Re: House Rules

Postby Savioronedge » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:03 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
Gargoyle wrote: I just wish there was a roll to it to make it feel more like they aren't losing a turn. Like maybe they do a fire combat roll when aiming and if they get a Good or Outstanding result then the bonus is even better on their following turn. Just don't want to make it too good.


Maybe a Mind roll, or a new perk "Eagle Eye: when you choose the Aim option make a Mind role (10), Standard ignore up to -2 in situational penalties...cover, range, called shot, etc. Good: ignore up to -2 from up to 2 different categories of conditional penalties. Outstanding: ignore up to -2 from up to 3 categories or up to -4 from 1 category."


Not a fan of lots of new perks. I'd rather just make it an option anyone could use. My thinking is that a big list of perks limits what people can do without them, so if it's a task that any hero could conceivably attempt, I'd like it not to be a perk, unless it's just so iconic that it begs to be a Prowess perk like Sniper. Characters don't really get a lot of perks, and so I like for the list to be smaller and only composed of things that fulfill some iconic tropes, and I don't really want "chains" of perks. The worst perk is the one you carefully design and test, and then no one ever takes. I know this not because of TorgE, but because it's so analogous to D&D feats in 3rd edition.

I'll put some thought into it, a Mind based Fire Combat skill check sounds like a good idea. Your proposed bonuses are ok, but perhaps on a Standard result you can fire into melee without risk of hitting an ally on your next turn, on a Good result you also halve the bonus to Armor given by Cover, and on an Outstanding result you can halve the penalty on a called shot.


Maybe the skill check could be Standard, you get the regular benefit of Aim (because it is possible to just waste time when trying to aim), Good: Aim + ignore Melee, Outstanding: Good + ignore -2 of penalties.

??

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Gargoyle
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Re: House Rules

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:19 am

Savioronedge wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
Maybe a Mind roll, or a new perk "Eagle Eye: when you choose the Aim option make a Mind role (10), Standard ignore up to -2 in situational penalties...cover, range, called shot, etc. Good: ignore up to -2 from up to 2 different categories of conditional penalties. Outstanding: ignore up to -2 from up to 3 categories or up to -4 from 1 category."


Not a fan of lots of new perks. I'd rather just make it an option anyone could use. My thinking is that a big list of perks limits what people can do without them, so if it's a task that any hero could conceivably attempt, I'd like it not to be a perk, unless it's just so iconic that it begs to be a Prowess perk like Sniper. Characters don't really get a lot of perks, and so I like for the list to be smaller and only composed of things that fulfill some iconic tropes, and I don't really want "chains" of perks. The worst perk is the one you carefully design and test, and then no one ever takes. I know this not because of TorgE, but because it's so analogous to D&D feats in 3rd edition.

I'll put some thought into it, a Mind based Fire Combat skill check sounds like a good idea. Your proposed bonuses are ok, but perhaps on a Standard result you can fire into melee without risk of hitting an ally on your next turn, on a Good result you also halve the bonus to Armor given by Cover, and on an Outstanding result you can halve the penalty on a called shot.


Maybe the skill check could be Standard, you get the regular benefit of Aim (because it is possible to just waste time when trying to aim), Good: Aim + ignore Melee, Outstanding: Good + ignore -2 of penalties.

??

Interesting, like the risk vs reward dynamic. I'd say for Outstanding though that they can go ahead and roll to attack during this turn, since they're risking their turn; and I dislike too many fiddly +/- modifiers, especially when they carry over to the next turn. So what I might try is this:

Aiming (variant)
Players can choose to use this rule or the Aiming rules on page 119. This variant gives them a chance to get even more benefits, but at a risk of losing their turn entirely.
A character with a ranged weapon can sacrifice their turn to aim, improving their precision by making a skill check with the relevant skill using Mind as the base attribute and a standard DN of 10.
Standard success: If she fires on the next turn, she adds +4 to the attack total.
Good success: In addition to the bonus from a standard success, if firing into melee on her next turn, if she hits she will strike the target she was aiming for, and has no chance to strike a random participant.
Outstanding success: In addition to the benefits of a standard and good success, instead of having to wait until the next turn, her turn is not sacrificed and she may roll her attack roll immediately.
A character can take simple actions and walk while aiming, but may not run or take regular actions (including Multi-Actions).

I could make the DN equal to the Dodge of the target, but I think if I did that the result would be that it wouldn't benefit them to aim against targets with high Dodge but would make easy to hit targets even easier to hit, thus encouraging them to aim against easy to hit targets and not aiming against targets that are hard to hit, and that's no good.

Thanks for the feedback and collaboration, I think this might be a good option for us.
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Kuildeous
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Re: House Rules

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:09 am

I agree that setting the DN equal to the dodge would weaken the Aim variant.

The introductory paragraph implies that there is a risk of losing a turn. I didn't see this spelled out in the text. Should there be a description of what happens on a failure? I assume by the introduction that if you fail to aim, then you lose your target, get temporary eye strain, etc., and simply cannot fire next action as you readjust. Or was the intention simply to fire without any aiming benefits whatsoever? Come to think of it, the latter makes a lot more sense to me, but the introductory text evoked the former initially.

It does have the weird mechanic where a PC might roll twice in one round if he gets an Outstanding Aim result. This is not unprecedented though. Disconnected characters roll twice per action anyway.
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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: House Rules

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:11 am

Gargoyle wrote:Outstanding success: In addition to the benefits of a standard and good success, instead of having to wait until the next turn, her turn is not sacrificed and she may roll her attack roll immediately.


I'm not saying it should be a dealbreaker, but the general rule is players only roll once per turn for everything they are doing, and this sounds like they make a second roll. That's not the end of the world but it's a bit out of place in TorgE. Maybe they should get a reduction of 2 on multi-action penalties next round, so they can get an extra action then?

Regardless, if you only get to use raw Mind to make the roll with, I think DC5 is probably better than DC10. Under the official rules any idiot can Aim and get +4 100% of the time, but with this variant as written even someone with Mind 10 doesn't get a bonus if they roll 9 or lower. That seems like a pretty poor bet. Even if you lower it to a total 15 for an Outstanding success, a super genius with Mind 13 will still need to roll a 15 on the d20 to aim and fire in one round. A 25% chance of that happening for the smartest person in the world seems low enough to me.

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Gargoyle
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Re: House Rules

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:22 am

Kuildeous wrote:I agree that setting the DN equal to the dodge would weaken the Aim variant.

The introductory paragraph implies that there is a risk of losing a turn. I didn't see this spelled out in the text. Should there be a description of what happens on a failure? I assume by the introduction that if you fail to aim, then you lose your target, get temporary eye strain, etc., and simply cannot fire next action as you readjust. Or was the intention simply to fire without any aiming benefits whatsoever? Come to think of it, the latter makes a lot more sense to me, but the introductory text evoked the former initially.


The intention is that on a failure they gain no benefit. Aiming is like any action in this variant, so you can fail and gain nothing from it, so your breathing wasn't good or you waited too long to fire, you get nervous, sweat is in your eye, whatever. I'll clarify.

It does have the weird mechanic where a PC might roll twice in one round if he gets an Outstanding Aim result. This is not unprecedented though. Disconnected characters roll twice per action anyway.


It's a bit different, but I like it because they're risking getting no benefit but the reward is potentially great.
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Gargoyle
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Re: House Rules

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:25 am

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:Outstanding success: In addition to the benefits of a standard and good success, instead of having to wait until the next turn, her turn is not sacrificed and she may roll her attack roll immediately.


I'm not saying it should be a dealbreaker, but the general rule is players only roll once per turn for everything they are doing, and this sounds like they make a second roll. That's not the end of the world but it's a bit out of place in TorgE. Maybe they should get a reduction of 2 on multi-action penalties next round, so they can get an extra action then?

Regardless, if you only get to use raw Mind to make the roll with, I think DC5 is probably better than DC10. Under the official rules any idiot can Aim and get +4 100% of the time, but with this variant as written even someone with Mind 10 doesn't get a bonus if they roll 9 or lower. That seems like a pretty poor bet. Even if you lower it to a total 15 for an Outstanding success, a super genius with Mind 13 will still need to roll a 15 on the d20 to aim and fire in one round. A 25% chance of that happening for the smartest person in the world seems low enough to me.


It's not a raw Mind check, it's a ranged skill check (Fire Combat, Energy Weapons, Missile Weapons, etc) using the Mind attribute. So it's a good variant for a shooter with a high Mind score to use, probably not a good idea if they have a low Mind unless they have high skill adds. I'll clarify, might even add an example. Note that the player can use the default rule if all they want is the bonus.
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Gargoyle
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Re: House Rules

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:35 am

Aiming (variant)
Players can choose to use this rule or the Aiming rules on page 119. This variant gives them a chance to get even more benefits, but at a risk of losing their turn entirely.
A character with a ranged weapon can sacrifice their turn to aim, improving their precision by making a skill check with the relevant skill using Mind as the base attribute and a standard DN of 10.
Failure: No effect. The character spends the round aiming but gets no benefit. Perhaps her breath control was off, or she was distracted or nervous, or the target became obscured momentarily.
Standard success: If she fires on the next turn, she adds +4 to the attack total.
Good success: In addition to the bonus from a standard success, if firing into melee on her next turn, if she hits she will strike the target she was aiming for, and has no chance to strike a random participant.
Outstanding success: In addition to the benefits of a standard and good success, instead of having to wait until the next turn, her turn is not sacrificed and she may roll her attack roll immediately.
A character can take simple actions and walk while aiming, but may not run or take regular actions (including Multi-Actions).

Example: Quinn takes aim at an advancing allosaur, hoping to take it out without harming one of the soldiers it is trying to eat. He rolls a Fire Combat check using his Mind attribute and gets a 15. His bonus is 2, his Mind is 8, and he has +5 adds in Fire Combat for a total of 15. That's just enough for a Good success, so next round he fires a shot with a +4 bonus to the attack total and has no chance of hitting his soldiers. Hopefully they are still alive then.

I do agree it still may be a bit difficult to get the rolls you want, but I'm ok with that, since I'm still allowing the player to choose the option from the RAW, and since they can still spend possibilities and cards, etc if it's important to them. In my mind it's for an experienced shooter or someone with a high Mind total, or for a desperate situation when you really don't want to hit your allies but still want to attack from range, not something everyone will benefit from or use all the time, and I like it as an option instead of a perk.
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