Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Rocketeer
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Rocketeer » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:49 pm

In general, I think changing things, such as Axioms and World Laws is fair game, but I don’t think now is the time to start doing so. After all, the physical Core Rulebook was delivered just a few weeks ago, and this first cosm book has yet to be published.

I'm still working on establishing the setting with a new group of players, by running a “world tour” style adventure, and they’re still getting comfortable with the rules. This Kickstarter is already introducing major changes with the new types of Drama Cards and Possibilities. Now we’re talking about altering Axioms as well. For my group, that’s just too many changes too quickly. Of course, as a GM, I can hold-off on introducing the new cards and rules, but changes to things such as Axioms will be harder to ignore, as official products will be based on those new Axioms.

When the source books for all the cosms are available, placing all the cosms on a well established and equal footing, there will be a solid basis for change. At that point, I'd be open to making reality changes in not just one cosm, but possibly several. However, until that time, I would greatly prefer that those things remain stable.

So, I'm hoping for No Change.

Jim
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Jim » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:55 pm

@Rocketeer,

Fair point, but I think raising the Social Axiom by 1 point is going to most affect NPC behavior patterns more than it's going to actually change any game mechanics the PCs have to deal with.

I'm not sure any strictly edeinos game mechanics would be altered significantly. Again, mostly just how they act and behave.

That said, if that's too much, I respect your vote.

sandchigger
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby sandchigger » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:03 pm

One thing that I haven't seen discussed on here is how raising the social axiom would make it easier for humans to survive in the Living Lands. They're pink and squishy and have no claws so without settlements and walls and maybe a couple of dedicated watchmen, they're gonna get eaten by all the new carnivorous megafauna pretty darn quick.

I strongly doubt that that's Baruk Kaah's desired effect, but it is an interesting side effect, nonetheless.

utsukushi
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby utsukushi » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:23 pm

Rocketeer wrote:In general, I think changing things, such as Axioms and World Laws is fair game, but I don’t think now is the time to start doing so. After all, the physical Core Rulebook was delivered just a few weeks ago, and this first cosm book has yet to be published.

Not that I'm in a position to speak on this, but given that most of the stuff from the Kickstarter is already written, I think the idea of this is to set an event in motion, which would then evolve over time (real time and game time). As Jim pointed out, it will probably be quite a while before we can see any official material based on this as it is... which is both a pro and a con.

RamblingScribe
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby RamblingScribe » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:30 pm

In the chat they said that the axiom increase, if it happens, will go into the LL book and on the GM screen.

Staffan
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Staffan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:03 pm

Matthew Surridge wrote:And it just struck me: the core rules mention that Baruk Kaah has had "several lifetimes" thanks to Rec Pakken. Which means he's probably got a bunch of kids and grandkids running about. Raising Social to allow city-states probably means bringing in the idea of lineages, meaning we could get a lot of dissatisfied princelings … boy, the law of unintended consequences could be strong here.

I don't know how much of the oTORG Edeinos stuff Ulisses will be using in Eternity, but to oTORG Edeinos family wasn't a big thing. They give birth in large numbers, and lots of people die (both children and parents), so the children are raised by the tribe as a whole.

They also generally don't have much in the way of leaders - this is called out as one of the ways in which Baruk Kaah is abnormal for the Edeinos. A tribe usually only have two positions of power: the optant and the gotak. The gotak doesn't really lead anyone (other than gospog), but they have spiritual power and do the "dirty work" of dealing with dead things, and they're given respect fot that. And the optant mainly leads by example - the tribe give them power because the tribe wants to see what the optant does with it.

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Matthew Surridge
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Matthew Surridge » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:52 pm

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm thinking — offspring and paternity and lineage aren't important to Edeinos as they are, but if the Social axiom gets raised another notch, maybe that creeps in. Leadership becomes more important generally (which would be why Kaah would raise the axiom), and then with that the idea of a parent maintaining power within their lineage. Kingship, basically.
Humankind cannot bear very much reality
— T.S. Eliot, who didn't know the half of it

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Jim
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Jim » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:50 pm

RamblingScribe wrote:In the chat they said that the axiom increase, if it happens, will go into the LL book and on the GM screen.


Yes, that is correct. The LL will not be outdated upon release. At the same time, U. is also right. They’re not going to rewrite a lot of material either.

That’s why I think it’s a good idea to put it on the timeline. So there can be a before and after. I’m really not pushing this Fourth of July thing, but I am thinking if the invasion started at the opening baseball game in New York City, if you made the axiom increase on the Fourth of July for example, you’re timing it at the end of Year One.

That’s just an idea. Spitballin’

So most of the sourcebook could be under the Core Rules, and this change is closer to Year Two. Which hopefully still keep it open for Infiniverse authors, because Year Two will take 2+ real years to come.

RamblingScribe
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby RamblingScribe » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:58 pm

I could get behind keeping everything as is, with an event in the timeline that at the end of year one (or near to it), Kaah will enact the axiom increase. That would give a lot of flexibility for individual GMs to enact it at any point, or defer it almost indefinitely.

I like the significance of July 4, but that's what, day 95 or so? That would be definitely at the beginning of the time the LL sourcebook covers.

Honestly, I will adapt either way, but if it's that early, it should have already happened in my game, before my players entered the LL, not that they would necessarily know (especially since my players are all new to Torg).

I definitely get that Baruk Kaah gets the symbolism of crushing American institions though. I've always assumed that the time and place of the first maelstrom bridge was intentional, not just by the authors, but by the big lizard himself.

Anyways, I do think that setting the axiom shift date late in the timeline could allay some concerns about it, especially if the default printed axiom levels stayed as they are, and a year two product could deal with the change in more detail.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Living Land Axiom Stretch Goal Discussion

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:21 am

So if there is an axiom change, when does it happen in the timeline, approximately? Whenever I want of course, but I mean officially? Before the events of the God Box? Closer to the one year mark or right at it?

I don't like this as a stretch goal and haven't changed my mind about that. But it's done and I went into why in the other thread, so I won't get negative about that here. I do like that axiom changes can happen, and I don't think it's too soon to put it at the Year one mark. I do like that players have input on the change. And it does make sense that Baruk Kaah would want to boost the Social axiom. Core Earth is a harder cosm to conquer than he's invaded so far, and drastic times call for drastic measures.

Despite Baruk Kaah being a badass in this iteration of the Possibility Wars, and the stated goal of not making him a pushover this time, even the developers have ackknowledged that out of all the High Lords, Baruk Kaah has done the worst out of all of them so far. So I actually would like a win for him here.

I said earlier I'd vote no, but I might go for a Social axiom change for that reason. If it's supposed to take effect close to the Year One mark, then it also really doesn't affect anything I run for a long time, and I can create my own adventure that confirms or refutes the change if I want, or I can just have it happen "off camera" which is probably what I'd do.

OTOH, If I decide to get the LL screen, I'll probably use it a lot for adventures prior to Year one, and would like for the axioms to be correct on it, so I might vote no change. Also I really like the axioms they chose for the LL and think that I could give Baruk Kaah some wins some other way if I want. If I created a bumper sticker it might say "Keep the Living Land Savage 2018" ;)

But currently I'm not planning on getting the screen so it doesn't concern me, and I can always ignore the canon, I've already done so on some things, and it's fine, not really an issue for me either way on this. I don't think this will change any published adventures for a long time since they have so many other cosms to publish and focus on after this one, it's sort of not really a change at all.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle


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