Too Much Tactical Analysis

ZorValachan
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:If the complaint is that RP is falling by the wayside however one thing to add as has been mentioned is enforce the use of roleplay in any card play or interaction attack. A player just can't say "I use maneuever", they need to say what they're actually doing and describe it to the group. I don't religiously enforce this in my game because as people has said, different players have different needs and many don't like having to be creative every single combat. But if that is what the players are asking for, it's kind of the bare minimum IMO.


I really dislike this. I used it for 20+ years in Old Torg, but my mentality changed. It's too similar to the Old School rogue/thief trying to backstab. The warrior can swing his big sword as much as he wants, the wizard/cleric can cast their spells as much as they want, but the thief/rogue (or interaction character in Torg) have to basically ask permission from the GM each time to use their thing.

When thief/rogue players started being able to set up backstab without the GM, it kinda opened my eyes. Now in TE i just want the skill and what they want to accomplish with it (So I can see what a Player's Call will be). "I taunt X, Y, and Z so they shoot at me" Then after the roll say what happens. Just like the warrior swinging his sword for massive damage and the GM going "You slice him crown to crotch".

I have had to say no when the skill is being used wrong, like the guy trying to use maneuver when he 40 meters from the villian and hiding behind a brick wall. But that's the same as telling the sword guy he can't reach the flying dragon.

I have had zero issue with players going too tactical. My players are the opposite they just do what they want at the moment. They are very well aware of the "combat dance" where range fire, melee engage and attack - new round, melee attack and disengage, range fire. Yet they never do it.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Greymarch2000 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:04 pm

ZorValachan wrote:I really dislike this. I used it for 20+ years in Old Torg, but my mentality changed. It's too similar to the Old School rogue/thief trying to backstab. The warrior can swing his big sword as much as he wants, the wizard/cleric can cast their spells as much as they want, but the thief/rogue (or interaction character in Torg) have to basically ask permission from the GM each time to use their thing.


Okay.

But this was in a response to a concern from a group that the game had become too tactical and reliant on die-chucking and hoarding bonuses. It was meant as a suggestion of refilling the game with flavour that may be getting lost. Not a "One True Way" to play for everybody.

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Wotan
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:42 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:
ZorValachan wrote:I really dislike this. I used it for 20+ years in Old Torg, but my mentality changed. It's too similar to the Old School rogue/thief trying to backstab. The warrior can swing his big sword as much as he wants, the wizard/cleric can cast their spells as much as they want, but the thief/rogue (or interaction character in Torg) have to basically ask permission from the GM each time to use their thing.


Okay.

But this was in a response to a concern from a group that the game had become too tactical and reliant on die-chucking and hoarding bonuses. It was meant as a suggestion of refilling the game with flavour that may be getting lost. Not a "One True Way" to play for everybody.

Not the One True Way!? :o

Oh, don't mind me guys, you carry on...
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Kanaris
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Kanaris » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:30 pm

Wotan wrote:Not the One True Way!? :o

Oh, don't mind me guys, you carry on...
*Calls Church Police*


Nobody expects the CyberInquisition!

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Rabbitball
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 pm

Kanaris wrote:Nobody expects the CyberInquisition!


No one expects the Spammish Repetition!
spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam...

:lol:
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Kanaris
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Kanaris » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:56 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
Kanaris wrote:Nobody expects the CyberInquisition!


No one expects the Spammish Repetition!
spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam...

:lol:


:lol:

Savioronedge
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Savioronedge » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:44 am

ZorValachan wrote:
Greymarch2000 wrote:If the complaint is that RP is falling by the wayside however one thing to add as has been mentioned is enforce the use of roleplay in any card play or interaction attack. A player just can't say "I use maneuever", they need to say what they're actually doing and describe it to the group. I don't religiously enforce this in my game because as people has said, different players have different needs and many don't like having to be creative every single combat. But if that is what the players are asking for, it's kind of the bare minimum IMO.


I really dislike this. I used it for 20+ years in Old Torg, but my mentality changed. It's too similar to the Old School rogue/thief trying to backstab. The warrior can swing his big sword as much as he wants, the wizard/cleric can cast their spells as much as they want, but the thief/rogue (or interaction character in Torg) have to basically ask permission from the GM each time to use their thing.

<disclaimer>The following disagreement is a matter of taste, not a condemnation</disclaimer>
I never considered the warriors' ability to say "I attack (x) with my (y)" and get away with it as a benefit. And certainly, My clerics do not have that leisure {The ones I play, not the ones I GM for}.

One of the reasons I fell hard for TORG in '90-'91 was the ability to make my Role playing matter. My GM could take my cybewitch taunting a Nile Stormtrooper with, "You obviously carry a weapon because you can't find your gun with both hands!" and decide that was worth a bonus, while the next player could just say, "I am Taunting a different one," without risking a bonus/penalty for good/bad creative wording.

Kuildeous can attest, I try to always narrate my card play, time permitting. I feel a sense of shame when I am unable to describe how my actiion Plays out... I don't just shoot at the vehicle, I shoot at the back of the vehicle driving away from me, letting the lead fly because the hostage is on the front of the car and should be safe, I don't just Invoke the Healing miracle, I implore the great mother goddess to shower her love upon one who is helping us rid her body of the Invaders.

This concept is also how my Elven Cleric was able to convert a Half-Orc to the worship of Corellon Larethian.

Yes, this level of RP can bog down a table, too. I for one would rather sit at a table with ↑ this taking most of the time than one where a 6 round combat takes 45 minutes because 3 players are running risk reward scenarios trying to optimize cards and options for the entire group.

Just my ⅓¢ after adjustment for inflation.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:53 pm

Personally I prefer to find out how the roll goes and then describe what happens afterwards.

So

<mechanically what I do>

<roll>

<dramatically describe what actually happens>
Deanna Gilbert
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fougerec
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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby fougerec » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:35 pm

I'm fond of the PbtA approach.

1. Player describes what they do that leads to the roll.
2. Roll and determine outcome when the GM asks.
3. Narrate the outcome.

In simplest terms this breaks down "I stab him with my sword" into two parts. The intent "I attack him with my sword" and the outcome "I drive it deep into his belly" or "he ducks at the last minute and I miss" predicated on the mechanics.

Way, way too often people narrate success (I stab him with my sword) and then roll the die and find out that they did not succeed.

Once people get the hang of that Intent/Outcome divide and use it, it becomes very simply to adapt it to card play/card trading because often the card gives you a frame work to build the intent on.

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Re: Too Much Tactical Analysis

Postby Rocketeer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am

Thank you for the responses. I think this hits close to the mark.

Greymarch2000 wrote:I think it's pretty inherent in the system and there's not going to be too much you can do about it. There's a significant amount of fiddling with DN adjustments and interaction attacks add another level to it compared to most games. The system actively encourages squeezing every last drop of bonus you can in combats…


After discussing this more with my players, I have a better understanding of the nature of the complaint. The root of the complaint has more to do with the feeling that the cards are driving the character’s actions rather than supporting their actions. Instead of deciding on a course of action and then looking for ways the cards might support their plans, some players feel compelled to look at the cards first and then choose a course of action based on what the cards support.

The game does not need to be played in this type of optimizing style. However, if presented with game mechanics amenable to optimization, some players see that as a tactical challenge, and they enjoy trying to optimize play. Others would rather not be bothered with that. Hopefully, we’ll find a balance at the table.


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