So, what spells are your players taking?

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Rabbitball
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:31 pm

pkitty wrote:Our elf Kindred Mage is all about "unlocking a being's potential," and thus went with enhance, haste, and inner barbarian. Has used all of them repeatedly (the last on himself to wield an overdrawn bow).


It's good to see the inner barbarian get some love. 8-)
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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pkitty
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby pkitty » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:52 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
pkitty wrote:Our elf Kindred Mage is all about "unlocking a being's potential," and thus went with enhance, haste, and inner barbarian. Has used all of them repeatedly (the last on himself to wield an overdrawn bow).


It's good to see the inner barbarian get some love. 8-)

Ohhhh just wait until he has a full-sized Drake AND can cast Inner Berserker on it. He's gonna be one happy tree-hugger. :)
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Kanaris
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby Kanaris » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:15 am

Savioronedge wrote:
TiaMaster wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:Bullet, taken as an offensive option that I cannot recall ever casting.


Wakshani wrote:Bullet's one that I've never been able to justify taking, personally, but I've heard other people adore it, so.


Is Bullet a bad spell or something?

Bullet is effectively a .38 which bites the shooter if he misses. It is the only physically offensive spell available to a CE caster...no fireball; no lighting bolt. It was also not available to a CE caster in the first edition of T:E Core Rules.

It is not a bad spell. In OT it was one of my favorites. I even created a wooden varient for a character whose signature attack was taking the toothpick from her lips and "flinging" it at an Enemy before pulling her 2 pistols out.

With the limit on knowable spells, having your CE/CP/OR/TH mage take it instead of 1 add in Fire Combat is mechanically inferior, so it will probably be story driven. Having your AY mage take it instead of a more significant attack spell may make sense...a Kanawa guard with a Bullet wound doesn't scream "Storm Knight" like one killed by Fireball or Lightning Bolt, but even the Elvish Sorcerer can shoot a CE 45 with the same chance of Disconnection in PP as the spell and significantly better effect, without the risk of Backlash, or in Tharkold without risking a Demon Attack.


I agree that Bullet has real drawbacks, but it has a good range, easy ammo requirements, can multi-attack and can be used while ostensibly disarmed. Furthermore, it is almost certainly quieter than most firearms in that there is no sound from the initial propulsion and I rule that like many guns it does not create a sonic boom so that it is quieter than most firearms even with a silencer. For a mage with high spirit and low-average dex it is an effective combat option, especially if the mage can reduce backlash through perks or cybernetics. The magic axiom is good for all but PP and LL, though admittedly in Tharkold it is probably too great a risk as the main combat option.

Savioronedge
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby Savioronedge » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:34 am

Kanaris wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
TiaMaster wrote:


Is Bullet a bad spell or something?

Bullet is effectively a .38 which bites the shooter if he misses. It is the only physically offensive spell available to a CE caster...no fireball; no lighting bolt. It was also not available to a CE caster in the first edition of T:E Core Rules.

It is not a bad spell. In OT it was one of my favorites. I even created a wooden varient for a character whose signature attack was taking the toothpick from her lips and "flinging" it at an Enemy before pulling her 2 pistols out.

With the limit on knowable spells, having your CE/CP/OR/TH mage take it instead of 1 add in Fire Combat is mechanically inferior, so it will probably be story driven. Having your AY mage take it instead of a more significant attack spell may make sense...a Kanawa guard with a Bullet wound doesn't scream "Storm Knight" like one killed by Fireball or Lightning Bolt, but even the Elvish Sorcerer can shoot a CE 45 with the same chance of Disconnection in PP as the spell and significantly better effect, without the risk of Backlash, or in Tharkold without risking a Demon Attack.


I agree that Bullet has real drawbacks, but it has a good range, easy ammo requirements, can multi-attack and can be used while ostensibly disarmed. Furthermore, it is almost certainly quieter than most firearms in that there is no sound from the initial propulsion and I rule that like many guns it does not create a sonic boom so that it is quieter than most firearms even with a silencer. For a mage with high spirit and low-average dex it is an effective combat option, especially if the mage can reduce backlash through perks or cybernetics. The magic axiom is good for all but PP and LL, though admittedly in Tharkold it is probably too great a risk as the main combat option.


I agree that Bullet is a good spell; and that is part of the problem. In old Torg, Bullet was an excellent beginning spell for a beginning mage. But, in old Torg for that mage to get a better spell or bigger spell was about as expensive as the gun slinger getting a better gun. In Torg Eternity, it is now exponentially more expensive for the mage to upgrade his tools than the techie. In fact, it is less expensive for the mage to upgrade by becoming a techie than by upgrading his magic... Increasing conjuration from two ads to five ads is twelve points plus five, if the single spell is his first new perk, more likely nine, gives us twenty-one points to learn fireball; or mage can dump three points into fire combat or heavy weapons and pick up an M-60 or anti-tank-weapon.

I am not saying switching focus like this is a good Character choice; it's just a math issue that seems to force mages(psionics, priests) to min max at creation because they will never afford to keep up with the item user through experience.

Kanaris
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby Kanaris » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:03 pm

Savioronedge wrote:I agree that Bullet is a good spell; and that is part of the problem. In old Torg, Bullet was an excellent beginning spell for a beginning mage. But, in old Torg for that mage to get a better spell or bigger spell was about as expensive as the gun slinger getting a better gun. In Torg Eternity, it is now exponentially more expensive for the mage to upgrade his tools than the techie. In fact, it is less expensive for the mage to upgrade by becoming a techie than by upgrading his magic... Increasing conjuration from two ads to five ads is twelve points plus five, if the single spell is his first new perk, more likely nine, gives us twenty-one points to learn fireball; or mage can dump three points into fire combat or heavy weapons and pick up an M-60 or anti-tank-weapon.

I am not saying switching focus like this is a good Character choice; it's just a math issue that seems to force mages(psionics, priests) to min max at creation because they will never afford to keep up with the item user through experience.


I agree with your central thesis, which I think highlights a broader issue as well. Spells, miracles and powers are XP expensive, among other things, because they come with the character wherever they go and are inexhaustible. On the downside - backlash. There are rules limiting the use of certain items - arcane items, artefacts, holy items, gizmos, cyberware - but for tech armour and weapons it is only availability/wealth. If armour and weapons are too reliable or too easily available and replaceable, then reliance on tech has no downside other than disconnection, which those who rely on the other axions must cope with as well. The downside of tech as compared to the other axioms is reliance on equipment. To balance the scales, I think GMs need to ensure that that equipment and ammo occasionally malfunctions, breaks or is lost. In OTorg, I think the rule was don't count ammo but use the occasional setback for this purpose. Getting replacement ammo / equipment from the Delphi Council should take at *least* a scene or two.

johntfs
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Re: So, what spells are your players taking?

Postby johntfs » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:45 am

I decided pretty early on to dump the New Power Perk for Faith/Psi/Magic in favor of a varying XP cost. I take the minimum skill required for the spell/power/miracle, divide by 2 and round up if need be. Dispel Magic requires Alteration 10 so acquiring it costs 5 XP. Gaining a new spell/power/etc. can only be done between adventures (not Acts) or if an opportunity presents itself within an adventure (After defeating a sorcerer, the party finds his spellbook and the mage spends 5 xp to learn the Dispel Magic spell in that book).

To preserve a bit of the "Mages etc shouldn't be walking spellbook" I put a limit of adds in skill as the maximum spells/psi powers one can have with miracles having a limit on Spirit+Faith adds. Though I might leave some "wiggle room" for stuff acquired through other Perks (Miracles acquired through Optant, etc don't count toward the limt, etc.)


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