Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Tzeentch27
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Tzeentch27 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:52 pm

Personally the faction keywords are the factions that use that item of wargear
For example the keywords associated with the chain sword are Chain, Aeldari, Imperium, Chaos
Which in my opinion means that the chain sword is used by the Imperium, the Aeldari and Chaos

As BanaB said in his first post in this thread the rule works but is badly worded

BRKNdevil
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby BRKNdevil » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:09 pm

Nah, I think Nito is right in this case,
the Chaos and the Imperium Keyword rules "box" is just really badly worded. The Keywords are said that those are groups associated with a Item of that type, nothing on whether they are or are not (p273) and the only RAW way to get around it would be to spend 5BP to ignore Keyword Restrictions (p183)
What it should say in order to work in world restrictions is probably something on the lines of Either having the Chaos and/or <Any> Keyword or if it doesn't have the Chaos or <Any> Keyword, the Imperium and/or Scum Keyword but no other Keywords. The GM may allow Keywords such as Adeptus Astartes for Chaos Marines but Not items with Primaris Keyword, or include other Keywords such as Astra Militarum if appropriate.

Tzeentch27
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Tzeentch27 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:32 pm

Granted, but as I said I think the keywords are the factions that can use the item.
The poor wording in the book does not help in this situation
I believe that some dev help would be nice in this situation

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:47 am

Tzeentch27 wrote:As BanaB said in his first post in this thread the rule works but is badly worded

A typical "RAW and RAI aren't the same" situation; the purpose of this thread is to make RAW and RAI the same, so the rule is worded properly to let it work as intended.
Our interpretations of it do work as intended, but the rule itself (as written) does not.
That's the problem to solve.

Verispex
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Verispex » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:36 pm

Let me clear this up.

Page 273 states under Chaos and the Imperium Keyword "Characters with the Chaos keyword can acquire any gear with the Imperium and/or Scum keyword (and no other faction keyword) normally. At the GM’s discretion, other faction keywords (such as Astra Militarum or Militarum Tempestus) may also be available for characters with the Chaos keyword."

Please notice the example given specifically calls out "specialized" Imperium organizations (Astra Militarum or Militarum Tempestus) which also includes Adeptus Astartes and Primaris (mentioned in the next paragraph) I do not think it was meant to include Orks, Eldar etc. as eliminators, but I think Adeptus Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Arbites and the Adeptus Astra Telepathicais are also infered.

Looking how this affects the possibilities, I believe this is the correct interpritation of the rule.

- Donavin

Also, please limit biting sarcasm and insults here. I've been told not only do I help clarify the rules, but also supposed to be an actual moderator. Consider this a general warning.
Wrath & Glory Community Manager

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:39 am

Verispex wrote:Let me clear this up.

Page 273 states under Chaos and the Imperium Keyword "Characters with the Chaos keyword can acquire any gear with the Imperium and/or Scum keyword (and no other faction keyword) normally. At the GM’s discretion, other faction keywords (such as Astra Militarum or Militarum Tempestus) may also be available for characters with the Chaos keyword."

Please notice the example given specifically calls out "specialized" Imperium organizations (Astra Militarum or Militarum Tempestus) which also includes Adeptus Astartes and Primaris (mentioned in the next paragraph) I do not think it was meant to include Orks, Eldar etc. as eliminators, but I think Adeptus Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Arbites and the Adeptus Astra Telepathicais are also infered.

A counterpoint: P. 103 lists groups of keywords (faction/nature, allegiance, specific sub-group); and Astra Militarum (along with MilTemp, admech, and the like) is explicitly presented as an example of an allegiance keyword, not a faction keyword.
Seems like the book has multiple conflicting interpretations of what constitutes a faction keyword, doesn't it.

Eric USNA
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Eric USNA » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 am

Hey folks, your friendly admin here.

I got called into this thread because it seems like it got a bit heated. I'm not going to delete the back and forth here, but I will use it as an example. Let's keep the arguments civil and always assume intelligence and good intentions on the part of people we disagree with.

Things that are "clearly in the rules" are not clear in the same way to everyone. Multiple readings and legitimate misunderstandings are always possible.

And if you find yourself getting frustrated with an argument, STEP AWAY. Come back later. Give Verispex some time to clarify (as he did here), and give yourself some time to cool down. When you're angry, look at your post before submitting - if the only new information in it is a negative comment about another person, maybe don't post that. (And actually, if any part of your post is a negative comment about another person, maybe don't submit that.)

As we grow the forums, we'll have new people coming in with what might seem like silly questions or ideas. Everyone is allowed to be mistaken or have different interpretations without being run out. I would rather have a friendly but foolish community than a hostile but accurate one. And since I have my finger on the banhammer, I get to decide that.

-Eric


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