Skeleton Warriors Stats?

callinostros
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Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby callinostros » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:50 am

In the LL book under the new spell, Unlife, they say humanoids turn into skeleton warriors, but what are their stats? Stats are given for the skeleraptors also mentioned in the spell. Did I miss the stats in another book?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:16 pm

callinostros wrote:In the LL book under the new spell, Unlife, they say humanoids turn into skeleton warriors, but what are their stats? Stats are given for the skeleraptors also mentioned in the spell. Did I miss the stats in another book?


Skeleraptors are on page 130, but yeaaaaaahhhhhhhh...skeletons......

I'd reskin a human or edeinos statblock and give them -- Shock, and give them:

• Fear: Test willpower or Spirit or become Very
Stymied.
• Mindless: Skeletons are immune to
intimidation and taunt interactions.
• Relentless: Skeletons ignore Shock.
• Undead: Skeletons are immune to poison
and other effects that require breathing, eating,
or other “living“ processes.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Greymarch2000 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:28 pm

And then play their theme song when attacking

https://youtu.be/a3ZlpTp_dJA

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Count Thalim
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Count Thalim » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:12 pm

This gives me flashbacks to how I felt as oTorg reached the end of its releases... :o :shock: :lol:
Per Sanguis Ad Astra

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Gargoyle
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:32 am

I think I would like to make it so that skeletons take less damage from "piercing" weapons like arrows and spears. Maybe guns too. Any suggestions for a house rule for that, or otherwise reducing damage from attacks I want to be less effective?

I just want some diversity in my undead in this game as there is quite a bit of them, and tactically I don't like that gospog, zombies, skeletons, etc all feel the same. I'm already thinking zombies should require Called Shots to the head to damage normally, but I'm not sure on those how to reduce the damage for the other strikes either. Maybe just say no bonus dice except for the preferred method of attack? I realize this makes skeletal t-rexes really tough, but I'm ok with that.

Idea for the Orrorsh book...perhaps something like this could help make undead more interesting? I know optional rules are not something U.S. wants to do, but as the development cycle is so long, I think little sidebar systems like this could have value.
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utsukushi
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby utsukushi » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:28 pm

I think a lot of that is supposed to be modeled by the lack of Shock. When you hit a zombie anywhere it isn't vulnerable, it just doesn't care, so either you get the brain or you do enough material damage to just physically disable it even if its jaws are still snapping, both of which are represented by causing a Wound.

As a player, if I was given a T-rex that I could only hurt with a called shot to the head, I would pretty immediately point out that a T-rex head is a whole lot bigger than a human head. Less maneuverable, too! So those called shots should be a lot easier. And once I started thinking about it like that, the reasoning doesn't just apply to undead T-rexes.

I think the hard part about making different damage types affect them differently is just that TorgE doesn't differentiate the damage types, so that gets into a lot of house ruling on the fly. Which is not a bad thing for an individual game, especially with a smart and experienced GM - it's just very hard to start quantifying past that. My immediate thoughts for how to model it would be either a higher Dodge value against piercing type attacks, or just say that attacks that come directly at them always work as if `shooting into a melee', with each skeleton having an "empty space" slot in the mix. So if you shoot at a Skeleton you have a chance of either hitting them, or of `hitting' that area where you'd normally expect flesh to be. If you shoot at a skeleton wrestling your friend, you have three possible outcomes, even if you hit*: your friend, the skeleton, or going right between two ribs.

Overall, I do like the idea, but for the system, I think it probably needs a different approach. Skeletons could have a Dodge bonus (harder to hit them in a significant way, but if you do, they're more brittle and easier to damage), while Gospog get a bonus to Toughness (not so hard to hit, but much harder to make them care), and Zombies perhaps are more the baseline. (Or require head shots, which is nicely thematic for zombies, but that's mechanically identical to +4 to Dodge, so it doesn't really help make them different. And it's a case where I really feel more of what Deanna said recently, about how high damage rolls should describe those kinds of attacks better.)

...as one last thought, you could reverse the Undead mechanic for Skeletons: give them Shock, but no Wounds. I actually like that enough I kind of wish it had been my first thought. You have to actually break them into bits through aggregated damage to stop them - otherwise, nothing really works. Smash in their skull? Sure, they weren't using it anyway. Lodge an explosive bullet right in the spine and blow up the whole torso? Nicely done! Still have to stomp on those arms that are clawing their way towards you, though. Noting that attacks that would have caused Wounds are still going to do more Shock, they still describe the more effective damage - just, it still has to add up to enough to not leave anything left that can hurt you, because unlike Zombies and Gospog, Skeletons don't make any sense, and they're cool with that.


*--Well, if you get that odd number and trigger the shooting-into-a-melee question, of course.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:56 pm

utsukushi wrote:I think a lot of that is supposed to be modeled by the lack of Shock. When you hit a zombie anywhere it isn't vulnerable, it just doesn't care, so either you get the brain or you do enough material damage to just physically disable it even if its jaws are still snapping, both of which are represented by causing a Wound.


I get that and I like it for the default core rule, it's simple and abstract, but my issue is that there isn't much difference between the huge variety of undead in the game right now and I want to do a house rule to change that. I specifically didn't run the Delphi Mission in Aysle because of the zombies...it just bored me since I knew they'd be facing lots of gospog.

As a player, if I was given a T-rex that I could only hurt with a called shot to the head, I would pretty immediately point out that a T-rex head is a whole lot bigger than a human head. Less maneuverable, too! So those called shots should be a lot easier. And once I started thinking about it like that, the reasoning doesn't just apply to undead T-rexes.

And the bonus to hit from the Large size helps them hit that big head, so I don't think that's an issue.

I think the hard part about making different damage types affect them differently is just that TorgE doesn't differentiate the damage types, so that gets into a lot of house ruling on the fly. Which is not a bad thing for an individual game, especially with a smart and experienced GM - it's just very hard to start quantifying past that. My immediate thoughts for how to model it would be either a higher Dodge value against piercing type attacks, or just say that attacks that come directly at them always work as if `shooting into a melee', with each skeleton having an "empty space" slot in the mix. So if you shoot at a Skeleton you have a chance of either hitting them, or of `hitting' that area where you'd normally expect flesh to be. If you shoot at a skeleton wrestling your friend, you have three possible outcomes, even if you hit*: your friend, the skeleton, or going right between two ribs.

Overall, I do like the idea, but for the system, I think it probably needs a different approach. Skeletons could have a Dodge bonus (harder to hit them in a significant way, but if you do, they're more brittle and easier to damage), while Gospog get a bonus to Toughness (not so hard to hit, but much harder to make them care), and Zombies perhaps are more the baseline. (Or require head shots, which is nicely thematic for zombies, but that's mechanically identical to +4 to Dodge, so it doesn't really help make them different. And it's a case where I really feel more of what Deanna said recently, about how high damage rolls should describe those kinds of attacks better.)

This could work and I have a similar idea below. And I get the appeal of things staying abstract, and the utility of reskinning, but if we're just reskinning one undead to another, do we really need that other type of undead? Part of me says yes for story, but I"m also a big fan of mechanics backing up the narrative if possible and not having something different just for the sake of appearances. I want it to feel different taking on a horde of Aysle zombies than a horde of jianshi, and I want that to feel different than a horde of gospog, not just in the way I describe them.

...as one last thought, you could reverse the Undead mechanic for Skeletons: give them Shock, but no Wounds. I actually like that enough I kind of wish it had been my first thought. You have to actually break them into bits through aggregated damage to stop them - otherwise, nothing really works. Smash in their skull? Sure, they weren't using it anyway. Lodge an explosive bullet right in the spine and blow up the whole torso? Nicely done! Still have to stomp on those arms that are clawing their way towards you, though. Noting that attacks that would have caused Wounds are still going to do more Shock, they still describe the more effective damage - just, it still has to add up to enough to not leave anything left that can hurt you, because unlike Zombies and Gospog, Skeletons don't make any sense, and they're cool with that.

*--Well, if you get that odd number and trigger the shooting-into-a-melee question, of course.


Letting them be affected by Shock and not Wounds is kind of a cool idea. It's counter-intuitive, but it does make them fall down after getting chipped down though. I sort of like it for all sorts of undead, but it doesn't solve my problem of how to diversify them.

What I'm trying to model in as elegant a way as possible, and without creating new mechanics but still recognizing that it may have to be in special abilities for each creature, is that the Elven archer's arrows and that Amazon's spear isn't going to do as much against a skeleton's body that is mostly empty space and has no organs, while a big club that literally breaks bones is going to work better.

What I'm thinking is that I am going to do for now is give them a special type of armor bonus.

I'd leave gospogs alone, but skeletons would have something like:

Toughness 12 (4)

Special abilities:
Skeletal armor: Skeletons are mostly empty space and gain a +4 armor bonus against piercing attacks such as from arrows, bullets, and spears (GM's call). Slashing or smashing weapons, explosions, or area effects bypass this armor completely.

Zombies would be handled in a similar way:

Toughness 12 (4)

Special Abilities:
Aim for the head!!!: Zombies have no vital organs except for the head, so their Toughness against most attacks gain a +4 armor bonus. Called shots to the head or area effects bypass this armor completely.

This buffs non-gospog undead, but that's ok. Gospog have higher plantings I can pull out. And since I've avoided skeletons and zombies, etc IMC I'm in a good spot to make these changes at my table. Haven't used jiangshi much yet, but I'm going to look at them too. Infection from cards is probably enough already to differentiate them though.
"That old chestnut?"

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ZorValachan
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:11 pm

Gargoyle wrote:I think I would like to make it so that skeletons take less damage from "piercing" weapons like arrows and spears. Maybe guns too. Any suggestions for a house rule for that, or otherwise reducing damage from attacks I want to be less effective?

I just want some diversity in my undead in this game as there is quite a bit of them, and tactically I don't like that gospog, zombies, skeletons, etc all feel the same. I'm already thinking zombies should require Called Shots to the head to damage normally, but I'm not sure on those how to reduce the damage for the other strikes either. Maybe just say no bonus dice except for the preferred method of attack? I realize this makes skeletal t-rexes really tough, but I'm ok with that.

Idea for the Orrorsh book...perhaps something like this could help make undead more interesting? I know optional rules are not something U.S. wants to do, but as the development cycle is so long, I think little sidebar systems like this could have value.


I'd probably handle it a whole other way.
In my Paraverse, I presented a Perk for Vampyres and lycanthropes (which are perks themselves). Basically Shock damage is treated as normal, but non-mystical (mystical being the "3"; magic, psionic, divine) wounds are converted to 2 Shock per wound.

I'd alter it a little for say your skeletal warriors. If you felt "blunt" type weapons would be useful against them and bullets/piercing would not, give them a similar perk, like "Piercing Defense", which would reduce wounds from these weapons down to shock. As for the fact they don;t take shock, as the GM you can decide to 1) ignore regular shock but count the downgraded wound -> 2 Shock and use it like Shock on normal foes, once it gets to SPI it drops. or 2) just ignore any and all shock, even downgraded shock (which would make them pretty much invulnerable to that weapon type). 3) do something like round down wounds and shock from that damage type. So 2 Shock = 1 Shock, 1 Wound = 2 Shock, 2 Wounds = 1 Wound, 3 Wounds = 1 Wound 2 Shock, etc.

You then have 1 template Perk "X Defense" which can be used by just replacing the X with a word.

Solving things with Perks (especially creature perks), is a lot simpler and less potentially damaging to the game than an overall rule change. if it doesn't work, just never have another creature with that Perk, it was a one time thing/group of things.
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Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

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Gargoyle
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:42 pm

ZorValachan wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:I think I would like to make it so that skeletons take less damage from "piercing" weapons like arrows and spears. Maybe guns too. Any suggestions for a house rule for that, or otherwise reducing damage from attacks I want to be less effective?

I just want some diversity in my undead in this game as there is quite a bit of them, and tactically I don't like that gospog, zombies, skeletons, etc all feel the same. I'm already thinking zombies should require Called Shots to the head to damage normally, but I'm not sure on those how to reduce the damage for the other strikes either. Maybe just say no bonus dice except for the preferred method of attack? I realize this makes skeletal t-rexes really tough, but I'm ok with that.

Idea for the Orrorsh book...perhaps something like this could help make undead more interesting? I know optional rules are not something U.S. wants to do, but as the development cycle is so long, I think little sidebar systems like this could have value.


I'd probably handle it a whole other way.
In my Paraverse, I presented a Perk for Vampyres and lycanthropes (which are perks themselves). Basically Shock damage is treated as normal, but non-mystical (mystical being the "3"; magic, psionic, divine) wounds are converted to 2 Shock per wound.

I'd alter it a little for say your skeletal warriors. If you felt "blunt" type weapons would be useful against them and bullets/piercing would not, give them a similar perk, like "Piercing Defense", which would reduce wounds from these weapons down to shock. As for the fact they don;t take shock, as the GM you can decide to 1) ignore regular shock but count the downgraded wound -> 2 Shock and use it like Shock on normal foes, once it gets to SPI it drops. or 2) just ignore any and all shock, even downgraded shock (which would make them pretty much invulnerable to that weapon type). 3) do something like round down wounds and shock from that damage type. So 2 Shock = 1 Shock, 1 Wound = 2 Shock, 2 Wounds = 1 Wound, 3 Wounds = 1 Wound 2 Shock, etc.

You then have 1 template Perk "X Defense" which can be used by just replacing the X with a word.

Solving things with Perks (especially creature perks), is a lot simpler and less potentially damaging to the game than an overall rule change. if it doesn't work, just never have another creature with that Perk, it was a one time thing/group of things.


That's pretty good, although I'd call it a Special ability rather than a Perk, but same thing really. I like the idea that they are immune to Shock unless its taken from a downgraded Wound, and that you only downgrade for "ineffective" weapon types. Elegant and more effective at modeling what I want, it allows a skeleton to still get slowly chipped away by gunfire, but usually not from a single bullet, or a zombie to get hacked apart eventually, etc, and not as clumsy as giving them more Toughness then special armor that has vulnerabilities and then they still end up getting killed with single big hits from wounds.

Thanks!
"That old chestnut?"

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Rabbitball
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Re: Skeleton Warriors Stats?

Postby Rabbitball » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:06 pm

My first thoughts on this were that skeletons would simply ignore "precision" attacks such as missile weapons and fire combat that depend on blowing through large amounts of flesh and that zombies could test against wounds (at -1 per wound that would be suffered) to shrug them off as being "non-vital". Whether that works for your purposes remains to be seen.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering


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