Casting into melee

mystic101
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby mystic101 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:02 am

TorgHacker wrote:Kidding aside, the priest is using the priest's abilities to determine success, not the deity's.

Plus omnipotence or omniscience is Spirit 26. Both together is Spirit 30.


I was speaking more to the priest’s doctrinal beliefs about their deity, rather than what their current reality actually allows. It makes it funnier if the priest believes their deity is infallible, and then they miss.

It could always be rationalized as an object lesson for the priest, too. Asking for lightning to be called down right next to their friend isn’t exactly a considerate thing to do, in regards to the friend’s safety. Maybe the deity wants the priest to care more about the welfare of others, and this is the object lesson to get the point across. If they’re playing fast and loose with the welfare of their allies, then they reap what they sow.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:38 am

fougerec wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:
Corner case IMO, that's what GMs are for. :) Going forward though, it's something to consider when designing miracles. One thing that could differentiate them further from spells would be that they don't miss.


They miss when you roll less than Dodge so they logically could miss in the heated exchange of melee. Unless they simply don't miss ever, which seem OP to me.


It's not if the DN test is Willpower or the effect made less so autohit isn't op. Wasn't saying that everything written should be changed or even that this is a good idea, just a way to further differentiate miracles from spells that should be considered.
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Gargoyle
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:54 am

mystic101 wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Kidding aside, the priest is using the priest's abilities to determine success, not the deity's.

Plus omnipotence or omniscience is Spirit 26. Both together is Spirit 30.


I was speaking more to the priest’s doctrinal beliefs about their deity, rather than what their current reality actually allows. It makes it funnier if the priest believes their deity is infallible, and then they miss.

It could always be rationalized as an object lesson for the priest, too. Asking for lightning to be called down right next to their friend isn’t exactly a considerate thing to do, in regards to the friend’s safety. Maybe the deity wants the priest to care more about the welfare of others, and this is the object lesson to get the point across. If they’re playing fast and loose with the welfare of their allies, then they reap what they sow.


One other way to look at it is the priest is the one hurling the lightning bolt and the deity is just allowing them to tap their divine power. I don't really like that, because it sort of turns the priest into a warlock type of character and blurs miracles with spellcasting but it could work for some faiths I guess. Some editions of D&D sort of view divine spells this way.
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utsukushi
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:31 pm

I think the question of a Miraculous attack missing is completely unrelated. I mean, yes, it's funny, but the Firing into Melee rules are a whole separate thing that can mean you hit your friend even when you hit - even, indeed, on a really good hit. That's not your god missing, that's your god misunderstanding who the enemy is, and that doesn't make sense to me.

And look at the powers it effects, out of the Core book: Bullet, Fireball(ish), Lightning, Hellfire, Lightning Strike, and Pyrokinesis. (Mage Hands also lists Dodge as the DN, but Mage Hands just lets you give your skills range, so that's a different mechanic). In my mind, Bullet is the only one that the Firing into Melee rules make sense for - it's an Axiom 8 spell that basically just throws a bullet, but with magic instead of a small channeled explosion to provide the force.

Fireball doesn't really apply because it hits in a Burst; if you throw it into a melee, it hits everybody anyway. So really that's two Lightning bolts and two infernos. So for Pyrokinesis, it's not like you're just shaping a ball of fire and throwing it - you're "channeling a destructive blast" right at someone, causing the "air itself to burst into flame". That feels to me like it actually occurs right on top of them, but even if it travels between the kinetic and the target, it still feels guided in a way that bullets aren't. Hellfire, likewise, is a projected `gout of flame', not just like a snowball made of fire.

And as for Lightning... does anybody have any sense of how fast a lightning bolt is? If anything should qualify as a direct hitscan attack, it's lightning. There's no way the scene is changing in the time it takes a lightning bolt to jump a paltry 100 meters.

In terms of `realism', I can absolutely see this being justified either way, so that's cool. It's magic; it works how you want it to work. But mechanically, I just understood it to be one of the reasons these attacks have a Perk buy-in, and that's a significant advantage to take away from them.

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Atama
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Atama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:32 pm

I always assumed with Miracles that you’re granted abilities by your deity, and you’re using your Faith to power and guide those powers. Your deity isn’t actually performing the act. So if you miss it’s all on you.
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Kuildeous
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:28 am

utsukushi wrote:But mechanically, I just understood it to be one of the reasons these attacks have a Perk buy-in, and that's a significant advantage to take away from them.


True, but there are plenty of opportunities for perks to be muted. Many perks provide no benefits when disconnected in most of the world. Critical Strike requires the target to be Vulnerable. Speed Demon requires swing a melee weapon in a very specific situation. Trademark Weapon has the same risks as Lightning Bolt when applied to a ranged weapon, as does the Slayer's Gun.

One of the great benefits of miracles/spells/psionics is that they usually can't be taken away. There are defenses against them, but they can't be confiscated by the bouncer like a gun would be. And you're using a skill that's likely already going to be increased since it can be used by other spells. In general, fire combat, missile weapons, and energy weapons skills will only see one use. Faith can be used for other miracles than just hellfire.

I agree that perks should have a benefit, but I feel that there's already one. It's not a guarantee, though. The group just has to figure out that there's a big risk in chucking a lightning bolt at someone in melee. In that split-second of electricity arcing through the air, your buddy may get in the way.

I also play with equipment being fleeting. Unless the item is part of a perk, it could get lost or stolen and be gone forever. But items and abilities tied to perks make their way to the PC eventually. A new wolf, a new gun, etc.
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fougerec
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby fougerec » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:36 am

utsukushi wrote:
In terms of `realism', I can absolutely see this being justified either way, so that's cool. It's magic; it works how you want it to work. But mechanically, I just understood it to be one of the reasons these attacks have a Perk buy-in, and that's a significant advantage to take away from them.


It's not about realism, it's about cinematic combat and playing a bit strategically. Over the distance combats take place there's no time for the scene to change for a bullet either. If your melee folks rush in first then they run the risk. If you fire into melee, you run the risk.

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Atama
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby Atama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:41 am

fougerec wrote:
utsukushi wrote:
In terms of `realism', I can absolutely see this being justified either way, so that's cool. It's magic; it works how you want it to work. But mechanically, I just understood it to be one of the reasons these attacks have a Perk buy-in, and that's a significant advantage to take away from them.


It's not about realism, it's about cinematic combat and playing a bit strategically. Over the distance combats take place there's no time for the scene to change for a bullet either. If your melee folks rush in first then they run the risk. If you fire into melee, you run the risk.

I was originally going to reply in much the same way but utsukushi already acknowledged this in her last paragraph.
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Re: Casting into melee

Postby utsukushi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 pm

Thank you, Atama! Honestly, I keep wanting to argue the speed of lightning vs bullets, because it is significant, but it's also basically irrelevant. It kind of helps establish why I think at least the spells (as always, also meaning miracles and psionic abilities) that we have make sense in working differently, but it's not actually why I thought they did, or think they should.

Kuildeous wrote:True, but there are plenty of opportunities for perks to be muted. Many perks provide no benefits when disconnected in most of the world.

Also true for the attacking spells, which are all (except for Bullet, which, as I've said, I think would be the exception here for its own reasons) very high Axiom - Fireball, Lightning, and Pyrokinesis are Contradictory in half the realms, while Hellfire and Lightning Strike are good in 5/8 because Spirit axioms tend to run high. And they uniquely risk Backlash when you miss, which is more likely to happen with those spells than any others for a number of reasons -- defenses tend to be the higher DNs, you're more likely to push the limits on combat spells, and they're the ones that get affected by, rather than causing, Concentration penalties.

One of the great benefits of miracles/spells/psionics is that they usually can't be taken away. There are defenses against them, but they can't be confiscated by the bouncer like a gun would be. And you're using a skill that's likely already going to be increased since it can be used by other spells. In general, fire combat, missile weapons, and energy weapons skills will only see one use. Faith can be used for other miracles than just hellfire.

The first is technically true, but that actually comes up in games so rarely - scenes where you can't bring your gear are specially set up plot devices, and it's frankly just as easy to make an area a null-magic zone. It's not a mechanical counterbalance. I actually disagree with you on the skill-versatility part. It's true for Faith, but then Faith has your choices choked back (eg., "Ward Enemy, and then you can choose.") Magic has four Skills to build up if you want the versatility, where you only ever need Fire Combat, Missile Weapons, or Energy Weapons, and that `one use' they see is the cornerstone of almost every Scene in every Act.

In that split-second of electricity arcing through the air, your buddy may get in the way.

...OK, I know, but seriously, the `split second' for a bullet is about a tenth of a second. That `split second' for lightning is literally a millisecond to jump the full 100 meter range. Yes, I can actually move a perceptible amount in a tenth of a second, especially if I'm already moving. In a millisecond? I can just about get a nerve impulse to the muscle. I want to say they're not comparable, but they totally are: the lightning is about a hundred times faster, and that is rounding down. Unless your buddy is The Flash, they're not going anywhere.

I also play with equipment being fleeting. Unless the item is part of a perk, it could get lost or stolen and be gone forever. But items and abilities tied to perks make their way to the PC eventually. A new wolf, a new gun, etc.

That's also relatively rare and in no way built into the system like this is. It's valid, but it's not reliable. RAW, I can still do everything with tech that I can do with magic, but without hurting myself every time I miss. But that does bring up another good point: if I stick with the tech side of things, I can use those freed-up Perks to buff that with things like Sniper, Trademarked Weapon, etc, getting added benefits as well as, even under your view, tying the item to me reliably. I AM really hoping Aysle comes with some comparable options to buff spellcasting, but that's just me dreaming, and even if it happens would only equalize that piece.

Between the Perk cost and the Backlash risk, I really do think it's, well, fair for spells to be a little bit better, and more than just, "Ah, but you can bring them to the bar!"

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Re: Casting into melee

Postby vaminion » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:48 pm

If I ever run Torg and want to keep the penalty for firing into melee I'll probably steal a rule from Savage Worlds: if you roll a natural odd and you miss you hit someone else in melee at random. But I'll admit the immutable 50% chance to hit a random bystander really bothers me regardless of whether it's a power or a gun.


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