Casting into melee

Savioronedge
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby Savioronedge » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:00 pm

Kuildeous wrote:My house rule is that the Aim action nullifies your chance to hit an ally. My group is very happy with it, and I found it very satisfying.

I make this an addition to the Sniper Perk. The point of being a Sniper is to take out a particular target amidst distractions, though this does add more power to the Perk than originally intended.

Maybe I should make a new Melee Perk: Get Down: A character with this Perk does not count as being an engaged ally for the purpose of triggering a Firing into Melee check, thus if an ally shoots into a melee involving only enemies and this character, the shot will not hit a random target on an Odd roll. If the rule is triggered by other combatants, this character is still subject to getting hit randomly.

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:05 pm

Kuildeous wrote:It is a harsh status. While I'm not opposed to it, I do recognize just how much of a burden there is on melee combatants. For one, they're likely the ones taking many of the attacks. They're spending Possibilities on attacking and soaking. Most of the time, ranged combatants don't have to suffer this (but if the GM throws in lots of ranged enemies, this is no longer true but then firing into melee is probably not an issue anymore). But on top of that, the melee combatants have to take the Very Vulnerable status to open up the enemy to ranged attacks. It's actually quite the burden to place on them.

Not that I'll be changing these rules, but I thought about alternatives. What if the melee combatant is Very Stymied instead? This makes great thematic sense because they're only half-heartedly attacking since part of their action is to also move away. But this opens a different can of worms. What if you choose to withdraw after you attack? Do you retroactively apply the -4? Perhaps the melee combatant has to commit to the -4 and then could decide not to withdraw after all, taking the penalty without the benefit.

Or maybe put the burden on the shooter. Make him Very Stymied to fire into melee. It really translates to D&D's -4 to shoot into melee. It works, but it also doesn't convey the danger of sending high-speed projectiles in the direction of your allies. Maybe give the ranged combatant a choice: Be Very Stymied or risk hitting an ally. Make it less game-able by allowing the Very Stymied only if he's not already Stymied.

The main issue is that melee is generally at a disadvantage compared to range. There's a reason why higher tech stories see a greater usage of guns. It's what makes Starfinder so weird because there's still this notion that melee fighters have to be big and strong and eschew firing their guns in a world where everyone else is using guns. There's always room for fisticuffs and swords, and there's often an advantage to getting up in the face of someone with a rifle, but mostly the combats will be at range, and that generally puts melee fighters at a disadvantage.

But it's a team game, and the players should focus on that and strengthen their weaknesses. If the melee person is getting pummeled, then trade them the good cards. Play Transfer to give them more Possibilities. Acknowledge that melee combatants will generally be at a disadvantage compared to ranged combatants and give them the chance to narrow that gap.


Armor is a thing too though, as well as perks that can help you stay alive. Melee combatants are more likely to take that stuff, while ranged focus on offense. I don't feel so bad for melee in this game, they seem to do quite well in play when built for it, and cards can be traded. It's only the dynamic of the shooter taking too many risks with their melee buds that bothers me a little. It's not a good feeling for anyone at the table when you accidentally shoot your buddy, and it's worse when players don't understand the rules and risks, which is common.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:14 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, I decided to make absolute sure about this ruling and I double checked with Darrell.

There are two types of attacks. "Attacks" and "Interaction Attacks". If it's not an Interaction Attack, it's an Attack.

All attacks obey the firing into melee rule. So that also includes things like attacks vs. willpower.


I'm a bit surprised, thought the dodge ruling made more sense. I will be ignoring this one at my table. :D I'm not going to be the one to tell my player that "You mind control one of the shocktroopers (or your buddy!) by accident". I just don't envision that sort of power as having a chance of hitting the wrong target. The description of Firing into Melee implies dodge anyhow.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

vaminion
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby vaminion » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:51 pm

Gargoyle wrote:I'm a bit surprised, thought the dodge ruling made more sense. I will be ignoring this one at my table. :D I'm not going to be the one to tell my player that "You mind control one of the shocktroopers (or your buddy!) by accident". I just don't envision that sort of power as having a chance of hitting the wrong target. The description of Firing into Melee implies dodge anyhow.


"Quick! Use Copycat to steal the NPC pilot's ranks in air vehicles before we crash!"
*dice roll*
"Bad news! I hacked Red Tooth's brain instead! Who knew Edeinos don't know how to pilot cyber-papal VTOLs?"

User avatar
Kuildeous
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby Kuildeous » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:59 pm

Savioronedge wrote:Maybe I should make a new Melee Perk: Get Down: A character with this Perk does not count as being an engaged ally for the purpose of triggering a Firing into Melee check, thus if an ally shoots into a melee involving only enemies and this character, the shot will not hit a random target on an Odd roll. If the rule is triggered by other combatants, this character is still subject to getting hit randomly.


It's got great flavor, but it continues to put the onus on the melee characters to avoid getting hit when the ranged combatant chooses to fire anyway.

All attacks obey the firing into melee rule. So that also includes things like attacks vs. willpower.


I'm not overly thrilled by this, but it is consistent, and I can't argue that. Certainly a reasonable house rule to bypass this for mental attacks.

But then we're assuming that mental (and cursing and godly) attacks just automatically pick out the correct target because these things just don't exist in real life. Maybe they do have a trajectory just like bullets do. That's trying to justify it after the fact, but it's something.
The Boneyard – Friends and foes within Tharkold's Blasted Land

Infiniverse Exchange Word template – Infiniverse Exchange template for MS Word users

vaminion
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby vaminion » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:57 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, I decided to make absolute sure about this ruling and I double checked with Darrell.

There are two types of attacks. "Attacks" and "Interaction Attacks". If it's not an Interaction Attack, it's an Attack.

All attacks obey the firing into melee rule. So that also includes things like attacks vs. willpower.


Does using mage hand to stab a guy who's 15 feet away count as a ranged or melee attack?
Last edited by vaminion on Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4397
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:58 pm

Melee.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4397
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:59 pm

Kuildeous wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:Maybe I should make a new Melee Perk: Get Down: A character with this Perk does not count as being an engaged ally for the purpose of triggering a Firing into Melee check, thus if an ally shoots into a melee involving only enemies and this character, the shot will not hit a random target on an Odd roll. If the rule is triggered by other combatants, this character is still subject to getting hit randomly.


It's got great flavor, but it continues to put the onus on the melee characters to avoid getting hit when the ranged combatant chooses to fire anyway.

All attacks obey the firing into melee rule. So that also includes things like attacks vs. willpower.


I'm not overly thrilled by this, but it is consistent, and I can't argue that. Certainly a reasonable house rule to bypass this for mental attacks.

But then we're assuming that mental (and cursing and godly) attacks just automatically pick out the correct target because these things just don't exist in real life. Maybe they do have a trajectory just like bullets do. That's trying to justify it after the fact, but it's something.


Incidentally I actually advocated not allowing shooting into melee at all.

The way I would have done it was make a Perk that allows the shooter to do it, at the cost of a Possibility.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

vaminion
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby vaminion » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:03 pm

How does the timing on something like Mind Control work? Does the target have to take the effect or can I choose to immediately drop concentration on that power if it hits an ally?

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Casting into melee

Postby Gargoyle » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:05 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:Maybe I should make a new Melee Perk: Get Down: A character with this Perk does not count as being an engaged ally for the purpose of triggering a Firing into Melee check, thus if an ally shoots into a melee involving only enemies and this character, the shot will not hit a random target on an Odd roll. If the rule is triggered by other combatants, this character is still subject to getting hit randomly.


It's got great flavor, but it continues to put the onus on the melee characters to avoid getting hit when the ranged combatant chooses to fire anyway.

All attacks obey the firing into melee rule. So that also includes things like attacks vs. willpower.


I'm not overly thrilled by this, but it is consistent, and I can't argue that. Certainly a reasonable house rule to bypass this for mental attacks.

But then we're assuming that mental (and cursing and godly) attacks just automatically pick out the correct target because these things just don't exist in real life. Maybe they do have a trajectory just like bullets do. That's trying to justify it after the fact, but it's something.


Incidentally I actually advocated not allowing shooting into melee at all.

The way I would have done it was make a Perk that allows the shooter to do it, at the cost of a Possibility.


Lately I've allowed them to break the rules in all sorts of ways by spending a possibility. It works pretty well. Our psychic wanted to control one of two enemy speedboats and crash them into each other. I felt like it was a Water Vehicles check, using Kinesis to make it do-able at a distance, telekinetically grabbing the wheel and turning it at the right moment, but rather than say no, that skill is untrained, I just said I'll let you make a Water Vehicle check for a possibility. And then he spent another on the roll, got a player's call and smashed them together <cue big explosion>. Very fun.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle


Return to “Rules Questions (TORG)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: graethynne and 13 guests