Telekinesis errata

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Telekinesis errata

Postby TorgHacker » Thu May 16, 2019 10:52 am

We are nerfing telekinesis.

Remove the second paragraph on flight in its entirety. Add the following paragraph after the first paragraph. "Essentially the psi can do anything she could do physically, just at range. For example, she could only lift heavy objects slowly, and only to as high as she could lift with her arms. If she wishes to grab someone, she grapples using the Grappling rules as normal."
Deanna Gilbert
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vaminion
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Thu May 16, 2019 11:53 am

Too powerful for its axiom level, I guess?

utsukushi
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby utsukushi » Thu May 16, 2019 11:54 am

Makes sense... even without the flight, it was already better than Mage Hands in every way except the very important note that Mage Hands is cast with the same Attribute it lets you swap in for Strength, so that makes it a lot easier to bear down on. Telekinesis is easier to use and gives better bonuses, but splits the Attributes. That seems good right there. I like it.

...speaking of Mage Hands, we were wondering recently, just when is its DN "target's dodge or Dexterity"? My understanding was that you always cast Mage Hands vs a DN of 10 to establish its strength, and then have to use other skills to, like, punch somebody. So I thought that was just establishing that if you punch someone, you're rolling Unarmed Combat vs Dodge, rather than vs their Unarmed Combat, and presumably have to worry about punching into a melee, because you've made it a ranged attack. But having it in the DN line on the spell does sound like you can target your basic casting of Mage Hands on an enemy, roll your Apportation vs their Dodge, and instantly grapple them. How does that work?

vaminion
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Thu May 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Mage Hands allows fine manipulation, like lock picking or firing a gun. TK doesn't. The two were pretty comparable except for the flight.

I don't mind the loss of flight but the height restriction feels arbitrary, especially since I think Mage Hands doesn't have that.

utsukushi
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby utsukushi » Thu May 16, 2019 12:08 pm

How does TK not allow fine manipulation? Even before this errata with its line, "Essentially the psi can do anything she could do physically, just at a range," it already said, "the psi's Mind is her Strength once activated, but she continues to use her own skills as usual." That absolutely sounds to me like you can pick a lock with telekinesis, using your lock picking skill as usual.

And Mage Hands would - the hands are extensions of your own, and everything you do requires making the same motion, so you can't reach up any higher with Mage Hands than you can with your actual hands. TK actually seems to still carry the advantage (as Psionics generally do) of not requiring that gesturing, meaning you can do it while holding, say, a pair of swords in your hands. Which does make the height restriction a little harder to explain for TK, but that's why it needs to be specified.

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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Thu May 16, 2019 12:12 pm

I'm on my phone so I can't find the thread. But I thought Deanna said at one point that's one of the differences between the two.

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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby TorgHacker » Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 pm

utsukushi wrote:How does TK not allow fine manipulation? Even before this errata with its line, "Essentially the psi can do anything she could do physically, just at a range," it already said, "the psi's Mind is her Strength once activated, but she continues to use her own skills as usual." That absolutely sounds to me like you can pick a lock with telekinesis, using your lock picking skill as usual.


Correct.


And Mage Hands would - the hands are extensions of your own, and everything you do requires making the same motion, so you can't reach up any higher with Mage Hands than you can with your actual hands. TK actually seems to still carry the advantage (as Psionics generally do) of not requiring that gesturing, meaning you can do it while holding, say, a pair of swords in your hands. Which does make the height restriction a little harder to explain for TK, but that's why it needs to be specified.


Essentially the reasoning is that as written, it had several problems.

1. It was really kinda vague on what it could do...so theoretically it could do A LOT.

2. Which meant that a lot of what would be split powers (see telepathy) is consolidated into this one, and that's not really good.

3. It kinda did two separate things.

4. This was at the first Social axiom moving objects with your mind was even possible. Which is a big jump from doing nothing. As written this really should have been a Social 25 power. Or even Social 26.
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby TorgHacker » Thu May 16, 2019 12:19 pm

Something to consider is that this IS the core thing that a telekinetic can do, so it being better than Mage Hands is okay. If I had my druthers I probably would have it be weaker, but that would essentially completely re-write the power, and I'm okay with getting it down to this power level. (It's bugged me for quite awhile).
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Thu May 16, 2019 12:23 pm

Found the disconnect for me.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2612&p=24785&hilit=Telekinesis#p24785

Atama said it doesn't allow fine manipulation because it doesn't explicitly say so. Deanna didn't directly address that but confirmed the spatula comparison. When I think lock picking I don't think spatula. So that's how I got there.
Last edited by vaminion on Thu May 16, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

johntfs
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby johntfs » Thu May 16, 2019 12:35 pm

I think Telekinesis should be re-written to include Axiom level. At Social 23 the psionic can lift objects with the lower of her STR or MIN. At Social 24 she uses her MIN and gets fine manipulation. At Social 25 she uses the higher of her STR or MIN and can lift herself for flight.

Or you simply add these as different powers. Base Telekinesis at Social 23. Fine Manipulation TK (prerequisite TK) at Social 24 and TK Flight at Social 25 (prerequisite TK and Fine Manipulation TK).


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