Telekinesis errata

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Thu May 16, 2019 6:35 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
HappyDaze wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Don't overthink it. If you can do it (or if you could do it if you were stronger), that's what happens...at range.


So it's like you project an invisible and intangible "not-you" out to range and this "not-you" moves things around with its not-hands so long as it is standing on its not-feet? I can follow that, but it sure isn't like the telekinesis you find in most sci-fi media.


No, that's in more powers coming later at higher Axiom levels.


Sounds like someone has started the Psi powers section for Space Gods ;)
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TorgHacker
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby TorgHacker » Thu May 16, 2019 8:04 pm

GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
HappyDaze wrote:
So it's like you project an invisible and intangible "not-you" out to range and this "not-you" moves things around with its not-hands so long as it is standing on its not-feet? I can follow that, but it sure isn't like the telekinesis you find in most sci-fi media.


No, that's in more powers coming later at higher Axiom levels.


Sounds like someone has started the Psi powers section for Space Gods ;)


Not really but I am starting to think about Pan-Pacifica. :-)

Tharkold too even though I'm not working on it directly.
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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 am

TorgHacker wrote:
GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
No, that's in more powers coming later at higher Axiom levels.


Sounds like someone has started the Psi powers section for Space Gods ;)


Not really but I am starting to think about Pan-Pacifica. :-)

Tharkold too even though I'm not working on it directly.


In that case it's probably worth doing a top down approach IMHO. Think about higher axioms for (at least psi) now so we don't have errata in the future for higher axioms.

I'm sure you went through the same exercise with miracles and the higher axioms of LL, I.e. you now have guidelines for miracles for all axioms between LL and PP.
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QuarrelBlue
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby QuarrelBlue » Fri May 17, 2019 6:15 am

TorgHacker wrote:"Essentially the psi can do anything she could do physically, just at range. For example, she could only lift heavy objects slowly, and only to as high as she could lift with her arms. If she wishes to grab someone, she grapples using the Grappling rules as normal."

You mean, an edeinos psychic can lift higher than human psychic, and a dwarf psychic can lift lower?
(Since "as high as she could lift with her arms" depends entirely on her height, arms up)

And, how cannot you lift yourself when your telekinesis is "at range"?
(If the reaction of lifting comes to psychic's physical body it prevents the psychic to lift oneself, but this opens a whole new way of levitation, telekinetically pushing somewhere downward constantly to get "kicks" repulsing the psychic's physical body upward while in midair!)

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Fri May 17, 2019 8:20 am

QuarrelBlue wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:"Essentially the psi can do anything she could do physically, just at range. For example, she could only lift heavy objects slowly, and only to as high as she could lift with her arms. If she wishes to grab someone, she grapples using the Grappling rules as normal."

You mean, an edeinos psychic can lift higher than human psychic, and a dwarf psychic can lift lower?
(Since "as high as she could lift with her arms" depends entirely on her height, arms up)

And, how cannot you lift yourself when your telekinesis is "at range"?
(If the reaction of lifting comes to psychic's physical body it prevents the psychic to lift oneself, but this opens a whole new way of levitation, telekinetically pushing somewhere downward constantly to get "kicks" repulsing the psychic's physical body upward while in midair!)


Maybe at this axiom level there isn't enough control and psi just end up ripping their whole skin off. Higher levels they can have flight(?)

You can always stand on a tea tray and lift that. Isn't that what the silver surfer does?
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vaminion
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Fri May 17, 2019 8:30 am

TorgHacker wrote:Don't overthink it. If you can do it (or if you could do it if you were stronger), that's what happens...at range.


That's the better explanation of the power and is a lot easier to adjudicate.

The arm thing is the kind of random non-clarification clarification that leads to boneheaded GM decisions like "You can only reach 9 feet up with your arms stretched over your head, so you can't use Telekinesis to push the button that's 10 feet off of the ground."

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jhosmer1
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby jhosmer1 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:39 am

vaminion wrote:The arm thing is the kind of random non-clarification clarification that leads to boneheaded GM decisions like "You can only reach 9 feet up with your arms stretched over your head, so you can't use Telekinesis to push the button that's 10 feet off of the ground."


As the GM in question, I promise not to do that. ;) Besides, the only person who would build something like that is Mobius, so you'd probably have other reasons not to push the big, red, shiny button.

Blightcrawler
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Blightcrawler » Fri May 17, 2019 5:01 pm

QuarrelBlue wrote:And, how cannot you lift yourself when your telekinesis is "at range"?
(If the reaction of lifting comes to psychic's physical body it prevents the psychic to lift oneself, but this opens a whole new way of levitation, telekinetically pushing somewhere downward constantly to get "kicks" repulsing the psychic's physical body upward while in midair!)


You can think of it like an intangible arm. Grab your own body and lift and you can't because there's no leverage. But unlike a real arm, it can only move and hold, it can't punch or push, so you can't push yourself away from the ground or pull yourself towards an object too heavy/fixed to move.

But the overall point I think is, kinesis can do these things, but only at higher axioms than it first appears. Telekinesis in the book (Core Earth compatible) is limited to 60's Jean Grey. Telekinesis Supreme in Pan-Pacifica and/or Tharkhold is beyond the early basics and allows for 70s/80s Jean Grey.

And these rules work to explain what works, particularly when it comes to powers and other character abilities. These aren't setting a logic basis from which we can extrapolate from, they specify what works and how and nothing beyond. If we want beyond, it's something different than described and must be chosen (not to mention designed).

GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:You can always stand on a tea tray and lift that. Isn't that what the silver surfer does?


No, his surfboard is an independent entity that is able to move and fly on its own (although it's power has often been linked to his own Power Cosmic, the latter doesn't power the former). It's more like the MCU representation of Dr. Strange's cloak (including having a personality and will) than Cap's shield. :ugeek:

mystic101
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby mystic101 » Sat May 18, 2019 11:50 pm

This rules change was announced just inside the window of time where tweaks to the backer archetypes were still possible, so I may have been able to slip a "consolation prize" into the mix for at least some of those telekinetic characters out there, who are now mourning the loss of their flying ability. We'll see.

Regardless, I was glad to potentially be of help to a few of my fellow players, and glad that the timing of things allowed for it.

utsukushi
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby utsukushi » Sun May 19, 2019 2:03 pm

Honestly, anything that lets you sub out one Attribute for another reliably is terribly strong to start with. We have a character who picked up Mage Hands as a throwaway, and since the first time she actually used it, it's become pretty much all she does. The only thing that's really saved it from dominating the game is that since she wasn't building her character to abuse this, she dumped Dex, too, so she can't regularly, say, Grapple enemies and then hold them locked down with her 15 Strength.

I'm not complaining because it's not my character and I don't know how the player feels about it, but as an observer I'm not sure I like the way it took over the character. Even with her, as I say, not having an optimized build for it, it's eclipsed all her other options.

Now, again, Mage Hands is actually stronger than Telekinesis for the simple fact that you only need Spirit for it, while TK requires both Spirit and Mind. It's not too hard to focus on two stats, but trying to get Spirit, Mind, and Dex all super high isn't really an option. So I like Telekinesis better to start with.

The take that MH could manipulate things while TK could just... pick them up and move them (and thank you, Vaminion, for digging that up!) -- it made them different, and you know I'm always for that, and I'd guess that's why they went that way first. But I expect the idea of abusing falling damage has just been pushed too far and we only have ourselves to blame for that. And thematically, thinking about psionics, Levitation is different from Telekinesis and should be its own ability.

...But I do think, in my daydream world in which I have the rights to Torg and get to write Eternity 2, I'd nerf Mage Hands first. When I look at mage hand type spells in other games (for example, "Mage Hand" in D&D), they're usually about small manipulations, not punching people. I'd probably just take out the ability to use Spirit for Strength altogether and say it purely lets you add range to things that don't have range, but everything is still based on all your actual Attributes. Or even say it just outright has a Strength of five. It's supposed to be a utility spell, for picking something up out of a fire or pushing a button on the other side of a chasm to summon the bridge. It's not supposed to be a combat behemoth.


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