Telekinesis errata

Savioronedge
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Savioronedge » Sun May 19, 2019 4:55 pm

utsukushi wrote:Honestly, anything that lets you sub out one Attribute for another reliably is terribly strong to start with. We have a character who picked up Mage Hands as a throwaway, and since the first time she actually used it, it's become pretty much all she does. The only thing that's really saved it from dominating the game is that since she wasn't building her character to abuse this, she dumped Dex, too, so she can't regularly, say, Grapple enemies and then hold them locked down with her 15 Strength.


As the player of this character, I agree (to a point).

The initial spark for the concept for the character happened when we first found out spells, miracles and Psi were each separate perks...and starting characters only get 2. The first draft [recently found in my spreadsheet graveyard] actually had the skills for all three with Miracles and Psionics, anticipating using Scrolls or items to make use of her Magic skills, thus achieving the impossible.

Looking at the rough draft, I was not pleased with it and it took a lot of refinement until Robin was designed, [and I am still not perfectly happy with the results, though she is working well so far].

I am looking forward to seeing what happens when Hands is not the best move she has.

Sir Awesome
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Sir Awesome » Mon May 20, 2019 10:08 am

Ok so I am just catching up with this forum post and I have some questions.

1) Do all the previous clarifications about TK stand? For example can I still multi Target with TK anywhere with in Range.
2) TK would make me strong enough to pick up something while someone stands on it. Why would you not be able to at least hover off the ground like that?
3) If the bridge is out can I TK people across the gap?


I am having real trouble with the idea that my TK suddenly stops working after 8ish feet off the ground. I can't think of a single example from anywhere that I have seen TK used fantasy/sci-fi/supers where it works like that.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Gargoyle » Mon May 20, 2019 10:58 am

Sir Awesome wrote:

I am having real trouble with the idea that my TK suddenly stops working after 8ish feet off the ground. I can't think of a single example from anywhere that I have seen TK used fantasy/sci-fi/supers where it works like that.


Regarding this part, I believe it is a game mechanic that is purely a balancing solution. I can understand not being able to suspend disbelief due to the limitation. It's not "realistic" in a sense that it's not consistent with how TK works in fiction. I thought about rationalizing it as a mental block ("I can't reach that high with arms so I can't reach that high with my mind, weird huh?") . But I think since this part of TK that hasn't bothered me, I'm just going to ignore it at my table and let it work at full range no matter if it's high up.

The flight part I'm not going to miss, always thought it was over the top, and I plan to have a special event on my next adventure to explain why she's losing that capability (trauma from the Nashville incident...picture Obi Wan sitting down holding his head after millions cried out and were suddenly silenced).
"That old chestnut?"

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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Mon May 20, 2019 11:16 am

Sir Awesome wrote:I am having real trouble with the idea that my TK suddenly stops working after 8ish feet off the ground. I can't think of a single example from anywhere that I have seen TK used fantasy/sci-fi/supers where it works like that.


You could argue that having a range in general is bad, I.e. why are some powers limited to 30 meters? Why isn't it a formula based on how strong your mind/skill is?

If you have read the Wild Card series, the Great and Powerful Turtle could lift battleships with TK, but he couldn't get it to work in outer space as he didn't have the Earth to 'push' against. There are always limits.

Maybe just bring the range to 5m/15m/30m like ranged weapons and 0/-2/-4 penalties. That should still have the desired effect.

I agree with limiting it to a value of Mind-5 or so on the value chart so you can't lift cars or yourself etc.

Higher axiom versions might remove some of these limits.
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vaminion
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby vaminion » Mon May 20, 2019 1:01 pm

GeniusCodeMonkey wrote:You could argue that having a range in general is bad, I.e. why are some powers limited to 30 meters? Why isn't it a formula based on how strong your mind/skill is?


Savage Worlds does that. It works (kind of), but it's a little clunky. I'm not sure Torg would benefit from that kind of rule. Not that I think you're saying that, just giving some perspective.

If you have read the Wild Card series, the Great and Powerful Turtle could lift battleships with TK, but he couldn't get it to work in outer space as he didn't have the Earth to 'push' against. There are always limits.


I was thinking Yoda and the X-Wing in Empire Strikes Back. I'm pretty sure he wasn't chucking that thing into orbit. My gripe with the height limit was not knowing where you calculate the height from, but Deanna seems to have addressed that.

I agree with limiting it to a value of Mind-5 or so on the value chart so you can't lift cars or yourself etc.


At that point I think TK becomes sufficiently niche it isn't worth the opportunity cost. You're also basically removing one of the only two powers Psis currently have that can reliably inflict wounds.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby TorgHacker » Mon May 20, 2019 2:52 pm

Something to remember is that Telekinesis is Social 23 which is the first time kinesis can move physical objects...and it jumped all the way to several hundred pounds (theoretically) and flight.

Give we had at least threetwo more Axiom levels, to go that seemed a bit overpowered. Especially when you consider what happens if you spam an ability that can just lift everybody off the ground and then drop them from 50 meters in the air.

At that point most combats become trivial.
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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Mon May 20, 2019 3:32 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Something to remember is that Telekinesis is Social 23 which is the first time kinesis can move physical objects...and it jumped all the way to several hundred pounds (theoretically) and flight.

Give we had at least threetwo more Axiom levels, to go that seemed a bit overpowered. Especially when you consider what happens if you spam an ability that can just lift everybody off the ground and then drop them from 50 meters in the air.

At that point most combats become trivial.


In the cosm where that happen, there would be anti-psi developed. In realms where there are contradictions, yeah it's a meta game play balance problem.

Having a smoother progression would have helped; with Social 25 being TK as described, and 23/24 being more in the minor category, but I guess there are always word limit issues with books :D
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Atama
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Atama » Mon May 20, 2019 4:43 pm

Setting a fixed range for powers serves two purposes.

1) It’s simple. No need to calculate values for range based on stats, adjust them when a stat is raised/lowered, etc. Just look it up and write it down.

2) It’s one more thing you can use to balance powers. Maybe Power A does 2 points more damage than Power B, but has half the range.

Anyway, to me that’s two reasons to do it the way US did, I’m sure there are other reasons as well.
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Sir Awesome
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Sir Awesome » Mon May 20, 2019 5:01 pm

I can see how TK should have never been able to let the castor fly (let alone run while they are flying), as for game balance most other game systems don't let people with the TK power fly. They have to go buy fly.

I do not agree with nerfing TK to only go as high as you can reach as I feel that you are destroying how TK is supposed to thematically work and almost all of the utility just to fix bad GMing.

No GM should ever let an "I win" button work every time, and as designers history shows that you will have a very very had time trying to fix all of them in the rules.

I also don't really see it being that much more powerful than other "I win" buttons in the systme: a Mind Control Psi(other than the fact that you could potentially multi-target with TK), a melee dwarf who punches for Str 21 with AP 2, an alchemist with KO bombs and opponent fails drama card, anyone that can shoot really really well and a barrett 50 cal, an interaction attack monster, and several others that I can't think of at the moment. When crunching the numbers and looking at it in practice lets assume a dex of 10 and that I get to move the bad guy as a simple action(which I don't believe that you should be able to do, but I could see the argument for it in the rules). This means that I am not moving on my turn, which is a much bigger disadvantage than it sounds, and I drop him from 20 meters for 20+1BD dmg. I am not really scared of that as a GM. Then if the player wants to go higher the mob has a chance to break out. You are also lifting the mob into the air which means that your melee guys will be sitting their doing nothing. I don't really see the efficiency of this being so powerful that it needs a nerf. Especially in a system that leave so much of the rules up to GMs call.

If you really feel that you have to change the basic rules for bad gming then there are several other ways that I could see working. You could halve your falling dmg which i fell needs to be done anyway as it seams really really high, you could say that when dropped with TK left over psi residue makes you take less falling dmg, you could say that it is a complex action to move a bad guy that you cant multi action, or you could just say cant grab unwilling targets. None of these destroy the utility of TK the way that your ruling does.

I personally will be not using this nerf at my table for the above reasons, but after the current story arc that I am running I will prob change the you can fly part of it.

Sword of Spirit
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Re: Telekinesis errata

Postby Sword of Spirit » Mon May 20, 2019 6:10 pm

I'm apparently missing something, because I don't appear to be understanding this at all.

Where in this errata does it say that lifting is relevant to the ground? Range isn't horizontal only. Couldn't I try to yank a light fixture out of the ceiling, for instance? It seems to me like the relevant implication is that you can't levitate stuff around in any direction (vertical or horizontal). If I pick up a heavy object that is 20 feet away, I can move it a few feet, but then have to put it down again. If I wanted to move it across the room towards myself I'd have to do it in individual lift/sets. This prevents flying or levitating vertically for more than a few feet because you'd fall or drop the object to the ground after each heave, but it would allow you to lift yourself, or anything else you have the capacity to, a few feet off the ground, you just cant "walk around" horizontally with it anymore than you could vertically.

I'm not sure if that was intended, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.


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